D&D 5E The challenges of high level adventure design.

[dave2008]

Which is akin to 'an anti-magic field suddenly pops up'.

No, you misunderstood what I wrote and/or made a wrong assumption.

A good DM would have anticipated the use of Wish in such a way,

I did, that is why I responded they way I did. You won't believe what is going to happen next!

Im almost of the view you need to run a game to 20th, and watch as your players ruin your encounters to get a handle on how high level play handles, in order to become a good DM of high level PCs.

I've run three adventures at 20th. TPKs the first two, they finally got the hang of high level by the 3rd time. When we do these one-shot high level adventures I go all out. They were slayed by Demogorgon* in one and Tiamat* in another. They defeated Vecna* in the third.

*Custom version, not the official versions.

 

[Reynard]

I did, that is why I responded they way I did. You won't believe what is going to happen next!

Level 20 Wizards hate this simple trick!

 

[dave2008]

The point is the Necessary amount of MadeupJunk vs Published stuff leans heavily to the former at high levels.

Obviously, there is only one "official" lvl 20 adventure after all. However, the books give me everything I need to make a 20th level adventure (except good advice).

However, like I said, even with all of the stuff officially provided for lower levels, I make it al myself anyway - so no real change. Making stuff is at least 50% of the fun for me.

 

[dave2008]

So @Minigiant, how in your theoretical 5e that goes to lvl 30, do I challenge level 30 PCs when there is no level 31-40 content?

 

[OB1]

But honestly for this adventure I literally just threw the kitchen sink at them, not having a clue how they were going to survive it. But....they did anyway.

This is the true joy of DMing Tier IV. You don't have to worry about killing the party being the fail state for the adventure anymore and can focus on preventing them from reaching their objective and what new adventure that leads to.

 

[LordEntrails]

Im almost of the view you need to run a game to 20th, and watch as your players ruin your encounters to get a handle on how high level play handles, in order to become a good DM of high level PCs.

I won't say almost... g
It's incredible hard to run a tier 4 adventure if you've never run a Teir 3 adventure before. It's hard to do, but certainly the best way to learn to run Tier 4 is to run a campaign from Tier 1 to tier 4 with the same players. But, most groups don't last that long.

 

[Minigiant]

So @Minigiant, how in your theoretical 5e that goes to lvl 30, do I challenge level 30 PCs when there is no level 31-40 content?

You don't have to.

PC advancement caps at level 20.

 

[dave2008]

You don't have to.

PC advancement caps at level 20.

OK, it seems like you have no real argument. I will stop wasting my time.

 

[Minigiant]

OK, it seems like you have no real argument. I will stop wasting my time.

I stated the solution long ago in the topic.

In a dungeon, you challenge the PCs with things that strain or restrict their resource and management of them.

The 5e Mage challenges a Tier 2 party with Tier 3 features.
The 5e Archmage challenges a Tier 3 party with Tier 4 features
The nonexistant Double Archmage challenges a Tier 4 party with Tier 5 features
The nonexistant Avatar of Mage challenges a Tier 5 party with Tier 6 features

 

[dave2008]

I stated the solution long ago in the topic.

In a dungeon, you challenge the PCs with things that strain or restrict their resource and management of them.

Or as others have said, embrace them. Always restricting or straining the PCs is not necessarily good/fun design either.

Also, it is not like I need tier 5 (which does exist in 5e) to challenge tier 4 adventurers. I find that assumption flawed.

 

[dave2008]

I stated the solution long ago in the topic.

In a dungeon, you challenge the PCs with things that strain or restrict their resource and management of them.

The 5e Mage challenges a Tier 2 party with Tier 3 features.
The 5e Archmage challenges a Tier 3 party with Tier 4 features
The 5e great wyrm challenges a Tier 4 party with Tier 5 features

There - fixed it for you.

 

[Minigiant]

Or as others have said, embrace them. Always restricting or strain them is not necessarily good/fun design either.

Also, it is not like I need tier 5 (which does exist in 5e) to challenge tier 4 adventurers. I find that assumption flawed.

I think you are confusing things.
There's Dungeon Adventure and NonDungeon Adventure.

Dungeon Adventure is about resource management. Dungeons are about traveling through X number of enclosed encounter at the party's pace within an adventuring day. NonDungeon Adventure does not have to be this.


If you want to do a Dungeon Adventure, you need features stronger than the party to hold them between the bounds and walls of the dungeon to drain their resources.

As PC level, they becomes stronger and slicker. So you need tougher stuff to brace the walls and force them to stay on a path within the drain of the dungeon. Usually these stuff are of higher tier. Thicker walls. Tougher locks. Richer factions. Stronger and Smart Monsters.

The idea behind the Tucker's Kobolds or the Mighty orc tribe is that the mnsters have the resources, allies, or upgraded leaders to make cheesing them with low level magic harder. They beat your Tier 1 magic with Tier 2 tech, wealth, and diplomacy.

The same applies to Tier 4.

If you are not doing a dungeon, you don't need the higher tier stuff.

 

[dave2008]

I think you are confusing things.
There's Dungeon Adventure and NonDungeon Adventure.

We have already been over this.

Dungeon Adventure is about resource management. Dungeons are about traveling through X number of enclosed encounter at the party's pace within an adventuring day. NonDungeon Adventure does not have to be this.


If you want to do a Dungeon Adventure, you need features stronger than the party to hold them between the bounds and walls of the dungeon to drain their resources.

As PC level, they becomes stronger and slicker. So you need tougher stuff to brace the walls and force them to stay on a path within the drain of the dungeon. Usually these stuff are of higher tier. Thicker walls. Tougher locks. Richer factions. Stronger and Smart Monsters.

The idea behind the Tucker's Kobolds or the Mighty orc tribe is that the mnsters have the resources, allies, or upgraded leaders to make cheesing them with low level magic harder. They beat your Tier 1 magic with Tier 2 tech, wealth, and diplomacy.

The same applies to Tier 4.

If you are not doing a dungeon, you don't need the higher tier stuff.

I disagree and you have done nothing to prove your point other than say it is so. I think we should just agree to disagree.

 

[Reynard]

There - fixed it for you.

While I agree with you in principle, the dragons in the MM are hands down the worst designed monsters of 5E -- doubly so the great wyrms.

 

[Minigiant]

While I agree with you in principle, the dragons in the MM are hands down the worst designed monsters of 5E -- doubly so the great wyrms.

That's because the MM dragons are just Tier 2 monsters with bigger numbers.

That's what I mean. They don't challenge the features and equipment of Tier 3 and 4 PCs. They don't make players say "Good thing I got (Class Feature) at level 13 or looted that (Magic item) last dungeon." They don't make you appreciate your high level stuff.

Like I randomly opened the PHB to the Paladin section. And I see Cleansing Touch. End a spell with a touch CHAmod/LR. Know what makes that fun? Being affected by several scary spells and ending them.

You know what non-variant Big Old Red lacks....

 

[dave2008]

While I agree with you in principle, the dragons in the MM are hands down the worst designed monsters of 5E -- doubly so the great wyrms.

Yes and no IMO. The 5e dragons are not well designed, but they are very close. They get a lot better if you just give them their lair actions for free, which I did. Now I use my own designs. This is what a great wyrm should look like: Red Dragon, Great Wyrm (Elite, CR 30)

 

[Reynard]

That's because the MM dragons are just Tier 2 monsters with bigger numbers.

That's what I mean. They don't challenge the features and equipment of Tier 3 and 4 PCs. They don't make players say "Good thing I got (Class Feature) at level 13 or looted that (Magic item) last dungeon." They don't make you appreciate your high level stuff.

Like I randomly opened the PHB to the Paladin section. And I see Cleansing Touch. End a spell with a touch CHAmod/LR. Know what makes that fun? Being affected by several scary spells and ending them.

You know what non-variant Big Old Red lacks....

Dragons shouldn't have spells. They should have dragony abilities that make high levels paladins soil their chainmail shorts. They are not only fundamental figures of fantasy the world over, they are IN THE NAME.

Lazy, boring dragons in D&D are unforgivable.

 

[Reynard]

Yes and no IMO. The 5e dragons are not well designed, but they are very close. They get a lot better if you just give them their lair actions for free, which I did. Now I use my own designs. This is what a great wyrm should look like: Red Dragon, Great Wyrm (Elite, CR 30)

Nice!

 

[dave2008]

That's because the MM dragons are just Tier 2 monsters with bigger numbers.

That's what I mean. They don't challenge the features and equipment of Tier 3 and 4 PCs. They don't make players say "Good thing I got (Class Feature) at level 13 or looted that (Magic item) last dungeon." They don't make you appreciate your high level stuff.

Like I randomly opened the PHB to the Paladin section. And I see Cleansing Touch. End a spell with a touch CHAmod/LR. Know what makes that fun? Being affected by several scary spells and ending them.

You know what non-variant Big Old Red lacks....

I get your point, but I personally don't want my dragons relying on spells to challenge PCs. IMO, they should have scary offense and hardy defense. Not every tier 4-5 threat needs to be a riddle.

 

[Minigiant]

Dragons shouldn't have spells. They should have dragony abilities that make high levels paladins soil their chainmail shorts. They are not only fundamental figures of fantasy the world over, they are IN THE NAME.

Lazy, boring dragons in D&D are unforgivable.

Spells or not, dragons should challenge the features of the PCs of their CR.

They don't. And this is because the designers of 5e mostly played or pushed unoptimized stereotypical D&D when they designed the game.