D&D 5E The challenges of high level adventure design.

[Maxperson]

Hey @Minigiant : does my Godzilla qualify as threat to a group of 20th level PCs? It is been a while since I checked, but I am pretty good at following the DMG guidelines (stretched a bit here for sure, with one caveat). Also, the multiple uses of the mythic trait is bit beyond RAW.

Godzilla DM'd for me for about 15 years. My old DM does motion capture and has been Godzilla in the last 3 movies.

 

[Maxperson]

That was the idea! I do have ideas to simplify it at some point. Started too when dragonlance came out, but never finished.

The only thing I saw in that write-up that I'm not sure about is the breath weapon getting rid of spells on those it hits. I'm all for dragons being able to do that, but big hot fire breath doesn't seem to me to be the right vehicle for it.

 

[nevin]

Even moreso than with other adventures, high level adventures need to be playtested. A lot. With diverse groups.

And the notion of tightly scripted campaigns needs to be replaced at high levels with generalized outlines with NPC goals and the understanding that things will change on the fly as the NPCs collide with the PCs. Instead of trying to script out every beat, just acknowledge that the NPCs (and DM) will have to adapt on the fly.

This....At low levels you can keep the game roughly where you want it and you have a good idea of what your party could pull off. At high levels give up knowing what can be done. Keep lists of what your players have done, enemies friends etc, and accept the fact that tomorrow they could jump to another plane and spend the next 3 or 4 sessions on some thing you'd never have thought of.

 

[nevin]

Just to reiterate, this thread is about design problems and solutions. I don't want it to get bogged down into "fuzzy" discussions about what is an appropriate kind of adventure for high level characters. High levels characters can go on a dungeon adventure or a McGuffin Quest or any of the other types of adventures other tier characters go on. But high level play presents specific design problems -- that is the purpose here.

redesigning the game so that High level adventures are more controllable and similar to low level adventures is simply forcing high level characters to play low level games. There are real world example's that are applicable. When Navy Seals show up with all the tech and back up the US can provide it's not the same thing as sending in a company of Army rangers.

High level Characters are The superhero's of the world, they are Drizzt fighting 100,000 orcs or Raistlin marching into Hell to fix things. If you come up with a game design that put's it all on rails for easy DM'ing then it's not high level adventuring it's just characters with more hitpoints doing the same thing.

 

[dave2008]

The only thing I saw in that write-up that I'm not sure about is the breath weapon getting rid of spells on those it hits. I'm all for dragons being able to do that, but big hot fire breath doesn't seem to me to be the right vehicle for it.

Stalker0 and I work-shopped the idea a bit. Basically the idea was dragon fire, particularly at this age, is beyond normal fire. It is magical fire with magical properties. Also, since the breath weapon is kind of an icon dragon thing, it felt right to add it on. However, I am open to other ideas.

 

[dave2008]

Godzilla DM'd for me for about 15 years. My old DM does motion capture and has been Godzilla in the last 3 movies.

Well that is completely awesome! That is my dream job!

Well, after being responsible for the next Godzilla design that is!

 

[Reynard]

Dragon magic is a very common trope. I think they should have spells. They should also have dragony abilities that make high level paladins soil their chainmail shorts.

I'm trying to think of a (western) mythical or literary dragon that is also a wizard and am coming up empty. Dragons that cast spells is a D&Dism as far asi can tell.

 

[Reynard]

redesigning the game so that High level adventures are more controllable and similar to low level adventures is simply forcing high level characters to play low level games. There are real world example's that are applicable. When Navy Seals show up with all the tech and back up the US can provide it's not the same thing as sending in a company of Army rangers.

High level Characters are The superhero's of the world, they are Drizzt fighting 100,000 orcs or Raistlin marching into Hell to fix things. If you come up with a game design that put's it all on rails for easy DM'ing then it's not high level adventuring it's just characters with more hitpoints doing the same thing.

I don't disagree with that, but am not sure what it has to do with the bit you quoted.

 

[dave2008]

I'm trying to think of a (western) mythical or literary dragon that is also a wizard and am coming up empty. Dragons that cast spells is a D&Dism as far asi can tell.

Predating D&D? Tolkien dragons were known for magical dragon speech (glarung and smaug both had it).

However, it is sufficient that it is a D&D thing. 1e, 2e, 3e all had spellcasting dragons. 5e does as a variant. Now, I am not personally a big fan of spellcasting dragons myself, but I think it should be an option, and I do like magical dragons (of which there a lot in literature).

 

[Maxperson]

I'm trying to think of a (western) mythical or literary dragon that is also a wizard and am coming up empty. Dragons that cast spells is a D&Dism as far asi can tell.

Think novels. The dragons in the Raymond Feists novels use magic. The dragons in Jim Butcher's Dresden books use magic. And in several other novels/series. It's not a new thing or a D&D thing.

 

[dave2008]

I'm trying to think of a (western) mythical or literary dragon that is also a wizard and am coming up empty. Dragons that cast spells is a D&Dism as far asi can tell.

There was a book series I read when I was young and starting with D&D and magic and spells basically came from dragons. Human spellcasters couldn't hope to catch up to dragon's spellcasting. This was 40 years ago or so. So probably after D&D, but not by much. I will see if I can remember what it was called.

I have not read the series , but earthsea dragons (1960s IIRC) use magic and are: "virtual demi-gods who speak the "Language of Creation" as their mother tongue."

EDIT: just check out this wiki lots of spell/magic using dragons: List of Dragons in Literature

 

[Maxperson]

There was a book series I read when I was young and starting with D&D and magic and spells basically came from dragons. Human spellcasters couldn't hope to catch up to dragon's spellcasting. This was 40 years ago or so. So probably after D&D, but not by much. I will see if I can remember what it was called.

Even more current is G.R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire. Magic comes from the existence dragons and when dragons return, spells start working much better and the world becomes more magical.

 

[dave2008]

Even more current is G.R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire. Magic comes from the existence dragons and when dragons return, spells start working much better and the world becomes more magical.

I was going for things closer to the time D&D came out. The number of magic using dragons in literature since 2000 is ridiculously large.

 

[Stalker0]

I'm trying to think of a (western) mythical or literary dragon that is also a wizard and am coming up empty. Dragons that cast spells is a D&Dism as far asi can tell.

From a western perspective probably. But from an eastern one, plenty of Chinese and even Indonesian dragons have magic abilities or control over elements.

 

[TheSword]

Are there any examples of good Tier 4 adventures for any edition?
Can we identify the elements that make them work?

I still have my High Level Campaigns hardcover from AD&D. Ironically one of the few books i struggled to sell on eBay… I wonder why?

It had seven maxims…

- Don’t Depend on the Dice (They’re too fickle)

- Intelligent Adversaries (consider the opponent’s intelligence; review the creature’s weaknesses; review the creature’s strengths; prepare for defeat; minimise personal risks; don’t Fight Fair

- Control Magic (use magical items, make magic tempting, remove unwanted magical items, challenge spell memorisation and acquisition, understand magic’s limitations)

- Be Aware of Demographics (Understand the PCs place in the world)

- Think on an Epic Scale (heroes are not anonymous; heroes deserve heroic tasks that have reaching Impact)

- Plan Ahead (create villains who learn, have consequences, use fame and infamy, maintain the balancing act)

- Share Responsibility (garner player interest, have players set goals, form allies and enemies, give all NPCs personality)

Its pretty old now, but as I write them I can see that most of the elements have found their way into modern adventure design at all levels.

 

[Stalker0]

In terms of high level adventure ideas, probably the simplest is the "World Break". A sudden apocalypse has come to the world, and the heroes need to stop it. This covers a lot of high level checkboxes.

• Limited Time: The end of the world is here....right now. The PCs have precious little time to stop it. The more they delay, the more people die. This focuses the party on action over planning, they might have a little time to get their bearings, cast some divinations, etc, but for the most part its go time!
• Instant world building: This is a great way to introduce a high level finale to a campaign that didn't have high levels in mind. You don't need an established BBEG or previous epic threats waiting for the party. Perhaps the break caused another plane to spill in monsters, or perhaps the worldwide damage itself is the challenge.
• Flexible Options for resolution: This scenario has a lot of options for the PCs. Maybe they find the person causing the issue and take them out (or maybe that stops it from getting worse, but doesn't solve the problem). Maybe they deal with the crisis directly. Maybe they find a way to save or move most of the people away from the crisis, whatever.
• Immediate credible BBEG: Whoever kicked this apocalypse off has immediate street cred with the PCS, even if its someone they have never heard of.

The biggest thing to consider with such an idea: Divinations. Why didn't the diviners of the world pick up on this apocalyptic event? Were the gods blind to it for some reason (or conspired to make it happen). Was the event so sudden that divinations couldn't pick up on it? did the BBEG arrange some kind of divination blank across the world? etc etc. You will want to think about some credible reason for this to add to the worldbuilding.

Here's a quick example: The BBEG has a dark pact with Vecna (for fun flavor you could have the BBEG have lost an eye as a token of the exchange). Vecna kept the event a secret for just long enough that mortals and gods didn't see it coming. In fact, note to the party in their travels that several notable diviners suddenly "lost their powers" right before the event happened, reinforcing the notion.

 

[Reynard]

Think novels. The dragons in the Raymond Feists novels use magic. The dragons in Jim Butcher's Dresden books use magic. And in several other novels/series. It's not a new thing or a D&D thing.

Those are both based on gaming fantasy, FYI.

 

[Maxperson]

Those are both based on gaming fantasy, FYI.

Maybe Feist patterned after D&D, but the Dresden Files are not, and it ignores the many other works like that. D&D is not all there is OR the source of all when it comes to dragons using magic.

Edit: Just looked and Feist didn't, either. He made up his own game based on Midkemia.

 

[Reynard]

Even more current is G.R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire. Magic comes from the existence dragons and when dragons return, spells start working much better and the world becomes more magical.

But that is not dragons casting spells. That's all I said, that dragons should be. Wizards. They should have inherent dragon abilities.

But D&D does and always has relied entirely too much on "spell like abilities" and otherwise applying PHB magic to monsters.

 

[Reynard]

From a western perspective probably. But from an eastern one, plenty of Chinese and even Indonesian dragons have magic abilities or control over elements.

Which still shouldn't be spells.