D&D 5E The challenges of high level adventure design.

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Not per day, per long rest.

And I run 5-minute short rests, usually handwaved, and limited to 2 per Long rest.

That's the meta at my table, expect 6 or so encounters per long rest (sometimes less, occasionally as few as 1, or rarely as many as a dozen).

That's a choice I make as DM.

When you choose (as DM) to allow a Long Rest (and short rest) recharge of your parties' resources goes a long way to challenge, and class balance.

I get that you prefer not to do anything about this, and just let Nova strikes happen, leading to massive class disparity (with casters dominating as a result; literally something you were just complaining about) but that's a consequence of the choices you're making as a DM and not on any other reason.

Nothing inherently 'wrong' with your choice, it's just that it's the thing that's leading to the problem (caster imbalance) that you seem to be really pissed off about.

It's within your power to change.

Sure, it's 5E's mantra even. "You change the rules because we can't be bothered to write decent ones!"

Moving long rests to 1 per adventure and short rests to 2 per adventure does help. It's also not the default, and a variant or a variant buried in the DMG. That high level D&D requires this to barely function is a problem for writing high level adventures for a general audience.

 

[Maxperson]

I said you need level 30 equivalent stuff to run level 20 dungeons adventures.

Without it, you can only run level 20 non-dunguen adventures.

Why? I would think if you can run a level 20 non-dungeon adventure, you can run a dungeon one as well.

 

[Mort]

It's literally a 6th level spell that leads you to a fixed, known location, on the same plane of existence. Something that a Ranger has mostly been able to do since 1st level.

If you're running T3 adventures, with PCs that can't already do this, or this is supposed to be part of the challenge, you're not running adventures for T3 characters.

All of your criticisms are what I've been saying all along, of how NOT to plan and run a high level adventure. The DM (when planning his adventures) factors in the abilities of the PCs. He already has determined what Legend Lore finds out when cast, and expects his casters to cast it, just like he's already figured out what the Rogue finds out when using his DC 30 skill check to find some information on the same topic.

Plus the material component for find the path, an object from the location you wish to find, makes it near useless unless the DM wants it to be otherwise!

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

It's literally a 6th level spell that leads you to a fixed, known location, on the same plane of existence. Something that a Ranger has mostly been able to do since 1st level.

If you're running T3 adventures, with PCs that can't already do this, or this is supposed to be part of the challenge, you're not running adventures for T3 characters.

All of your criticisms are what I've been saying all along. The DM (when planning his adventures) factors in the abilities of the PCs. He already has determined what Legend Lore finds out when cast, and expects his casters to cast it, just like he's already figured out what the Rogue finds out when using his DC 30 skill check to find some information on the same topic.

A 1st level ranger cannot just find a lost city deep in a jungle. All the caster needs is familiarity. They don't need to know its location, only some basic aspects of it. An adventure is going to need to devote pagecount to having alternate encounters/info for parties without that, assuming traveling to a forgotten ancient temple isn't too mundane for 11th level characters.

LOL at the DC 30 skill check. Schroedinger's expertise and ability scores are in effect again I see.

 

[Flamestrike]

Sure, it's 5E's mantra even. "You change the rules because we can't be bothered to write decent ones!"

Im not changing any rules. My DMG expressly tells me to vary resting frequency to taste, and provides a few variant rules for me to use.

It's ultimately a question of how you (as DM) want to police the adventuring day. If you choose not to then fine, but expect players to nova strike encounters, abuse the 5MWD, and class imbalance to kick in.

While I disagree with your methods, we share a common dislike for the longer adventuring day. I'd much prefer if every ability and resource (HP etc) were made 'per encounter' so adventuring days are encounter neutral (doesnt matter how many or how few).

The advantage of the longer day and mixing short and long rest classes together is it avoids the 'sameyness' of 4E and allows a DM to move the spotlight in his group (by simply varying rest and encounter frequency from adventuring day to adventuring day).

It makes your job a lot harder as DM, for what I see as a limited reward.

Moving long rests to 1 per adventure and short rests to 2 per adventure does help. It's also not the default, and a variant or a variant buried in the DMG. That high level D&D requires this to barely function is a problem for writing high level adventures for a general audience.

It doesnt 'barely function' at high level for me, as I've already established (via people on this thread that have played in high level play with me as DM in an adventure I designed).

It functioned just fine.

If it's not functioning for you, perhaps it's (again) down to choices you're making as DM.

 

[Flamestrike]

Plus the material component for find the path, an object from the location you wish to find, makes it near useless unless the DM wants it to be otherwise!

It basically leads to 'PCs are hired to go to X and kill the BBEG before Y happens; dude that hires them goes here is a bit of X we recovered from X to help you find X (Player casts Find the Path, expending a 6th level slot)'

End result is the DM has drained a 6th level slot from his Caster, for a result he had pre-ordained as he wrote the adventure.

The illusion at the table is (Nice work caster, we never would have found it without you!).

While the DM looks on in amusement.

Its the same with adventures set on a different plane, or 'here are the co-ordinates of a teleportation circle near the adventure spot, you'd better hurry before the BBEG casts his ritual and everyone dies'. They're just pre planned resource drains for the Wizard.

 

[dave2008]

Plus the material component for find the path, an object from the location you wish to find, makes it near useless unless the DM wants it to be otherwise!

Yep, as DM I can control a lot of spells by providing / limiting access to spell components.

 

[Reynard]

A 1st level ranger cannot just find a lost city deep in a jungle. All the caster needs is familiarity. They don't need to know its location, only some basic aspects of it. An adventure is going to need to devote pagecount to having alternate encounters/info for parties without that, assuming traveling to a forgotten ancient temple isn't too mundane for 11th level characters.

LOL at the DC 30 skill check. Schroedinger's expertise and ability scores are in effect again I see.

Repeating that high level adventures are impossible isn't really adding much to the discussion.

 

[Minigiant]

I am not sure I understand why you think you need a list of Level 30 counters to 20th level PCs in order to challenge them. You don't have a menu of Level 15 counters or anything -- you have PC abilities, and a bunch of stuff in the DMG and MM, some of it with CRs and some of it just there. It isn't like a dungeon is built by beings with class levels with an operating budget.

If those abilities and tools existed this topic wouldn't exist.

 

[dave2008]

Its the same with adventures set on a different plane, or 'here are the co-ordinates of a teleportation circle near the adventure spot, you'd better hurry before the BBEG casts his ritual and everyone dies'. They're just pre planned resource drains for the Wizard.

Yes, if magic is a problem for you a DM/adventure can drain a lot of magic resources outside of actual encounters.