D&D 5E The challenges of high level adventure design.

[Minigiant]

What abilities? NPCs don't create dungeons -- GMs and designers do.

Who built Abarim's Tower?
Abarim the Archmage.

Who created the Maze of Might?
Jerkules the Demigod of Strength

Who built the Cathedral of Mighnight
The NightPope of Carazan

Who dug Boboman's Tomb?
Boboman's killer, the demon Zuzuman.

What's not in the MM or DMG? Abarim's Dampening Zone spell, Jerkucles' ability to punch through anything, the Nightpope's Total Sensory Deprivation Aura, or Zuzuran's Groundhog

 

[dave2008]

Unless the caster uses wish to cast it as an action and with no components.

If they want to waste a 9th level spell on that - it is a win in my book!

 

[MarkB]

Wizard: OK, Everyone, pre buff. (A few rounds later) I wish the skull of the cult leader of Nox-Ra from level 17 of the Hellstair to be teleported to the table in this room.

(Inexperienced DM thinking at a million miles an hour for a reason why this wont work)

Wizard: Payment please.

Or, like, just wish for a 25,000 gp object four days in a row. 100,000 gp is chump change at high levels, literally not worth getting out of bed for.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

It doesnt 'barely function' at high level for me, as I've already established (via people on this thread that have played in high level play with me as DM in an adventure I designed).

It functioned just fine.

If it's not functioning for you, perhaps it's (again) down to choices you're making as DM.

Look at your Gith pirate ship encounter. Its a basic low level encounter smothered under 60 pounds of magic and resource tracking to counter high level player magic. The end result is the same, particularly for the non-casters. "You fight some pirates who swing onto your ship and there's some high winds and the ship is rocking." What does all the high level wankery really add? It isn't telling a different type of story, the DM is just doing more work to get to the same point.

You point out that this is just done for illusionism's sake, but when we all know the amp is the same volume, does it actually achieve the illusion? We saw you painting 11 on it!

 

[Flamestrike]

Dungeons are a anomaly. And dungeon adventure really isn't a logical realistic occurrence without forcing them to exist.

That's why high level dungeon adventure doesn't work in 5e. The factors that force you to delve a dungeon like a Tier 1 or Tier 2 character don't exist in Fifth Edition RAW.

A dungeon is (in reality) just a railroaded (or semi railroaded) series of adventures limited by the walls of the dungeon. At low level, walls are enough to keep the train on the rails. From mid-level onwards, they cease to be, because PCs have abilities that bypass them.

At higher levels, you need to think beyond walls being the rails. Give the PCs the illusion of freedom of choice, but the walls are actually still there, they just dont see them anymore.

 

[dave2008]

Who built Abarim's Tower?
Abarim the Archmage.

Who created the Maze of Might?
Jerkules the Demigod of Strength

Who built the Cathedral of Mighnight
The NightPope of Carazan

Who dug Boboman's Tomb?
Boboman's killer, the demon Zuzuman.

What's not in the MM or DMG? Abarim's Dampening Zone spell, Jerkucles' ability to punch through anything, the Nightpope's Total Sensory Deprivation Aura, or Zuzuran's Groundhog\

I really have not idea what your talking about. I don't need any of those to make 20th level dungeon. I have my own NPCs and monsters to make dungeons, traps, etc.

 

[Flamestrike]

Look at your Gith pirate ship encounter. Its a basic low level encounter smothered under 60 pounds of nonsense and resource tracking to counter high level player magic. The end result is the same, particularly for the non-casters. "You fight some pirates who swing onto your ship and there's some high winds and the ship is rocking." What does all the high level wankery really add? It isn't telling a different type of story, the DM is just doing more work to get to the same point.

Hahahaha. The end result is always the same. The players are challenged, but ultimately successful in defeating the bad guys.

And of course, you're doing more work. Your players have more abilities, and the numbers being tossed around are higher. A goblins stat block is a little different to that of a Spellcasting Ancient Dragon.

If you dont want to do the work, dont DM high level parties.

 

[dave2008]

Wizard: OK, Everyone, pre buff. (A few rounds later) I wish the skull of the cult leader of Nox-Ra from level 17 of the Hellstair to be teleported to the table in this room.

(Inexperienced DM thinking at a million miles an hour for a reason why this wont work)

Wizard: Payment please.

Simple fetch quests are not going to work, unless you've done your homework (and have experience) on high level PC abilities.

DM: Nothing appears to have happened and you've lost your 9th level spell slot. You feel a tingling sensation as the hairs on your body start to rise. Roll for initiative!

 

[Reynard]

Who built Abarim's Tower?
Abarim the Archmage.

Who created the Maze of Might?
Jerkules the Demigod of Strength

Who built the Cathedral of Mighnight
The NightPope of Carazan

Who dug Boboman's Tomb?
Boboman's killer, the demon Zuzuman.

What's not in the MM or DMG? Abarim's Dampening Zone spell, Jerkucles' ability to punch through anything, the Nightpope's Total Sensory Deprivation Aura, or Zuzuran's Groundhog

Are you suggesting that outside of those things you specifically called out, everything in those adventures (which I have never heard of) was the product of some leveled ability in the rule books?

 

[dave2008]

Or, like, just wish for a 25,000 gp object four days in a row. 100,000 gp is chump change at high levels, literally not worth getting out of bed for.

Well you will be in bed for a while and you're likely to lose the spell forever (but your point is valid):

The Stress of casting this spell (Wish) to produce any Effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you. After enduring that Stress, each time you Cast a Spell until you finish a Long Rest, you take 1d10 necrotic damage per level of that spell. This damage can't be reduced or prevented in any way. In addition, your Strength drops to 3, if it isn't 3 or lower already, for 2d4 days. For each of those days that you spend Resting and doing nothing more than light activity, your remaining recovery time decreases by 2 days. Finally, there is a 33 percent chance that you are unable to cast wish ever again if you suffer this Stress.