D&D 5E The challenges of high level adventure design.

[dave2008]

And you don't think "way more work and BS for the same payoff" is part of the problem with writing high level general audience adventures and high level D&D in general?

Something being a problem is fine, you keep saying it can't be done. That is different.

 

[Reynard]

That's my point.

It's not in the book. That's why you can't run 5e Tier 4 dungeon adventures in 5e by the book.

The stuff you need isn't in the books.

You have to make up more than half of it wholesale as homebrew. Stuff that is often too powerful to be allowed for level 1-20 player characters to have access to.

I really wish you had been clearer about this early on.

Anyway -- you are ALWAYS making stuff up to challenge the party, from level 1 onward. This is no different.

 

[Maxperson]

That's my point.

It's not in the book. That's why you can't run 5e Tier 4 dungeon adventures in 5e by the book.

The stuff you need isn't in the books.

You have to make up more than half of it wholesale as homebrew. Stuff that is often too powerful to be allowed for level 1-20 player characters to have access to.

You can gate NPC abilities. The crazy NPC made a horrible bargain with a demon lord. Sure the PC could do the same thing, but no sane player would give up what that NPC gave up, and if against long odds the PC does, the price balances it out.

 

[dave2008]

That's my point.

It's not in the book. That's why you can't run 5e Tier 4 dungeon adventures in 5e by the book.

The stuff you need isn't in the books.

You have to make up more than half of it wholesale as homebrew. Stuff that is often too powerful to be allowed for level 1-20 player characters to have access to.

Well I just disagree. I can make a challenging 20th level dungeon adventure that just uses published material. Nothing you said is even remotely convincing.

That being said, I probably wouldn't. I haven't used published material for levels 1-15, why would I start at levels 16-20! Also, running D&D "by the book" doesn't mean only using what is in the book!

 

[Flamestrike]

DM: Nothing appears to have happened and you've lost your 9th level spell slot. You feel a tingling sensation as the hairs on your body start to rise. Roll for initiative!

Which is akin to 'an anti-magic field suddenly pops up'.

A good DM would have anticipated the use of Wish in such a way, created a backstory that 'the person who placed the skull in the tomb Wished that it could only be removed via X, Y and Z', or 'placed it in a demi-plane warned by a dimensional lock spell, and factored in a Legend Lore to discern the PCs learning this info in the first place.

If you ever find yourself as DM back peddling and trying to come up with contrivances to force the PCs on your plot after the fact (i.e. they were not present in the adventure as designed) it's a good indication you lack the epxerience of running high level games.

Im almost of the view you need to run a game to 20th, and watch as your players ruin your encounters to get a handle on how high level play handles, in order to become a good DM of high level PCs.

 

[Reynard]

Which is akin to 'an anti-magic field suddenly pops up'.

A good DM would have anticipated the use of Wish in such a way, created a backstory that 'the person who placed the skull in the tomb Wished that it could only be removed via X, Y and Z', or 'placed it in a demi-plane warned by a dimensional lock spell, and factored in a Legend Lore to discern the PCs learning this info in the first place.

If you ever find yourself as DM back peddling and trying to come up with contrivances to force the PCs on your plot after the fact (i.e. they were not present in the adventure as designed) it's a good indication you lack the epxerience of running high level games.

Im almost of the view you need to run a game to 20th, and watch as your players ruin your encounters to get a handle on how high level play handles, in order to become a good DM of high level PCs.

That is a weird way to interpret @dave2008 post. They did not say anything about nerfing the wish on the fly.

 

[dave2008]

That's my point.

It's not in the book. That's why you can't run 5e Tier 4 dungeon adventures in 5e by the book.

The stuff you need isn't in the books.

You have to make up more than half of it wholesale as homebrew. Stuff that is often too powerful to be allowed for level 1-20 player characters to have access to.

By the book (DMG) I can give an ancient red dragon 20 levels of a class (which adds 210 HP) and riddle a dungeon with traps that inflict 132 (24d10 - DMG Damage Severity and Level table) damage all "by the book" and that is just a start.

 

[MarkB]

Well you will be in bed for a while and you're likely to lose the spell forever (but your point is valid):

The Stress of casting this spell (Wish) to produce any Effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you. After enduring that Stress, each time you Cast a Spell until you finish a Long Rest, you take 1d10 necrotic damage per level of that spell. This damage can't be reduced or prevented in any way. In addition, your Strength drops to 3, if it isn't 3 or lower already, for 2d4 days. For each of those days that you spend Resting and doing nothing more than light activity, your remaining recovery time decreases by 2 days. Finally, there is a 33 percent chance that you are unable to cast wish ever again if you suffer this Stress.

Fair - I was misremembering the spell description, thinking that the stress effect was only for going beyond one of the standard usages, not for anything other than reproducing a spell effect.

Still, there are plenty of ways to get rich just by reproducing spells without any time or material cost.

 

[Minigiant]

I really wish you had been clearer about this early on.

Anyway -- you are ALWAYS making stuff up to challenge the party, from level 1 onward. This is no different.

The point is the Necessary amount of MadeupJunk vs Published stuff leans heavily to the former at high levels.

Where is the demon who is restiant to spammed low level spells, blender swords, and minor summons while immune to the various effects highly level PCs can bring out?

 

[Reynard]

The point is the Necessary amount of MadeupJunk vs Published stuff leans heavily to the former at high levels.

Where is the demon who is restiant to spammed low level spells, blender swords, and minor summons while immune to the various effects highly level PCs can bring out?

We have veered off the intent of the thread again, so I will put it this way: one solution to the design problem of the MM not having good enemies* for high level PCs is to include new enemies in the adventure (which lots of modules do).

*this is true at every tier; the MM is BORING