D&D 5E The challenges of high level adventure design.

[Minigiant]

Why? I would think if you can run a level 20 non-dungeon adventure, you can run a dungeon one as well.

Dungeons are a anomaly. And dungeon adventure really isn't a logical realistic occurrence without forcing them to exist.

That's why high level dungeon adventure doesn't work in 5e. The factors that force you to delve a dungeon like a Tier 1 or Tier 2 character don't exist in Fifth Edition RAW.

 

[Reynard]

If those abilities and tools existed this topic wouldn't exist.

What abilities? NPCs don't create dungeons -- GMs and designers do.

 

[dave2008]

If those abilities and tools existed this topic wouldn't exist.

I really wish you could explain what your talking about instead of giving one-liners.

5e has things that we more powerful than 20th level PCs by RAW that can challenge them (not that I believe you need that). What do you believe we need level 21-30 for to challenge a level 20 PC in a dungeon, that we don't then also need in a wilderness (outside a dungeon)?

 

[Reynard]

Dungeons are a anomaly. And dungeon adventure really isn't a logical realistic occurrence without forcing them to exist.

That's why high level dungeon adventure doesn't work in 5e. The factors that force you to delve a dungeon like a Tier 1 or Tier 2 character don't exist in Fifth Edition RAW.

"Somewhere on level 17 of the Hellstair is the tomb of a cult leader of Nox-Ra! I'll give you 100,000 gp for his skull."

 

[dave2008]

Dungeons are a anomaly. And dungeon adventure really isn't a logical realistic occurrence without forcing them to exist.

That's why high level dungeon adventure doesn't work in 5e. The factors that force you to delve a dungeon like a Tier 1 or Tier 2 character don't exist in Fifth Edition RAW.

What factors?

 

[Flamestrike]

Yes, if magic is a problem for you a DM/adventure can drain a lot of magic resources outside of actual encounters.

It's not a problem letting high level PCs use their abilities.

They feel good for (teleporting the party to the adventure locale, finding information on it via magic, or plane shifting the party there or whatever).

But the DM had that already planned. It's all really an illusion. It's the caster expending spell slots, in a way the DM had already accounted for (and indeed intended on, because he's savvy to high level play).

It's ONLY ever an issue with DMs who are unware of high level spells like that (due to inexperience) when they plan an adventure, the whole point of which (going to the Astral plane, or getting to the top of the tower, or finding the hidden island etc) is easily defeated by a single spell slot and a click of the fingers.

When you know what your PCs can do, you can plan for it in a way that leaves them happy (even though all you've done in reality, is charge them a Spell tax before the adventure is even off the ground).

 

[Maxperson]

Dungeons are a anomaly. And dungeon adventure really isn't a logical realistic occurrence without forcing them to exist.

That's why high level dungeon adventure doesn't work in 5e. The factors that force you to delve a dungeon like a Tier 1 or Tier 2 character don't exist in Fifth Edition RAW.

That's the problem. You have to set it up so that they WANT to delve. As for leaving and coming back(which includes a long rest in an extradimensional space or something), which I'm sure you'll bring up, there's nothing like giving a level 20 dungeon time to get ready for your return. It's virtually a death sentence. Good players will push through and get to the objective before leaving.

 

[MarkB]

Yep, as DM I can control a lot of spells by providing / limiting access to spell components.

Unless the caster uses wish to cast it as an action and with no components.

 

[Flamestrike]

"Somewhere on level 17 of the Hellstair is the tomb of a cult leader of Nox-Ra! I'll give you 100,000 gp for his skull."

Wizard: OK, Everyone, pre buff. (A few rounds later) I wish the skull of the cult leader of Nox-Ra from level 17 of the Hellstair to be teleported to the table in this room.

(Inexperienced DM thinking at a million miles an hour for a reason why this wont work)

Wizard: Payment please.

Simple fetch quests are not going to work, unless you've done your homework (and have experience) on high level PC abilities.

 

[dave2008]

It's not a problem letting high level PCs use their abilities.

I said "if."

They feel good for (teleporting the party to the adventure locale, finding information on it via magic, or plane shifting the party there or whatever).

But the DM had that already planned. It's all really an illusion. It's the caster expending spell slots, in a way the DM had already accounted for (and indeed intended on, because he's savvy to high level play).

It's ONLY ever an issue with DMs who are unware of high level spells like that (due to inexperience) when they plan an adventure, the whole point of which (going to the Astral plane, or getting to the top of the tower, or finding the hidden island etc) is easily defeated by a single spell slot and a click of the fingers.

When you know what your PCs can do, you can plan for it in a way that leaves them happy (even though all you've done in reality, is charge them a Spell tax before the adventure is even off the ground).

I agree with what your saying, but that is not the only way to do things.

Personally I like engaging with the requirement of spell components. The wizard has to select what to bring for material components. If they don't have what they need, then that may become a quest in itself. It also give reasons to investigate. If you like banishment, you better know what your going to be up against so you have the right material components.

Look at spell components as an opportunity for adventure, to simply an afterthought.