D&D 5E The challenges of high level adventure design.

dave2008

Legend
I never said that.

I said you need level 30 equivalent stuff to run level 20 dungeons adventures.

Without it, you can only run level 20 non-dunguen adventures.
OK, yes I see I missed that. But why do think that is true? Why do you think you need lvl 20+ stuff to have a level 20 dungeon and not need it for a non-dungeon? I don't think that was ever explained in your responses. And to be clear, the general thread is about high level, not level 20.

However, I don't see why I couldn't design a dungeon, within the guidelines of 5e, that could challenge a level 20 party. If you consider a tower a dungeon, then WotC released one for free last June (Don't Say Vecna).
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Reynard

Legend
I don't think evil plans need to be too general. Bastion of Broken Souls has a very specific bad thing Ashardalon is up to. I think you can still provide adventures for high level characters, even if the structure is different, without it just being a book of big bads (although the end of 3E books of epic level big bads were apparently very good).
If you provide the BBEG with strong motivations, factions working for and against them, locations where relevant things happen, and some NPCs (helpful and otherwise), you should be able to just let the PCs loose.

Again, i think this is the right solution for adventures at all levels, but it seems especially important for high level adventures.
 

Have DM'd to 20th (and beyond) and have not encountered that problem at all.

The star of our show was the Swashbuckler 14/ Battlemaster 6, over and above the Cleric 14/ Paladin 6, Warlock 20 and Bard 18/ Warlock 2 and the Paladin 2/ Druid 18.

All his 4 other party members had 9th level slots, but for single target damage, and 'unable to roll less than a 27 on any Skill check I make ever' and smart usage of those skills, there was never a problem.
Yeah, I get your adventures with 6-8 combats a day (shudder) with inorganic hour long naps every 2 encounters technically work well on the DPS charts. Hard pass for me. Doing MOAR damage in D&D's boring combats isn't exciting to me anymore.

Skills don't do legendary stuff in D&D. Magic is the first, second, third, etc solution to EVERY. SINGLE. PROBLEM. And that's the problem. Call me then that thief can literally steal someone's identity or turn a demon good with a single act of kindness (DC 30).
 

What specific changes would you make? Well, not specific since we don't have an adventure. But would it be like "If the PC party includes a wizard, make sure Counter McSpellian is among the Henchman"?
So in the DM directions for the adventures where you talk about the pool of encounters, simply make a statement like: "Parties that have strong martial and magical range attacks should be faced with more of the scout and caster sets. While a melee and or magic buff party will be better challenged with adversaries from the shocktroops and guard sets." Or whatever for the sets that you have created. To facilitate that, you could put a little description on each set, like: "This set will be effective against melee martials while being weak against party offensive magic."
 

dave2008

Legend
Yeah, I get your adventures with 6-8 combats a day (shudder) with inoragnically prescribed hour long naps every 2 encounters technically work well on the DPS charts. Hard pass for me. Doing MOAR damage in D&D's boring combats isn't exciting to me anymore.
How did you extrapolate this from what @Flamestrike said?
 

Reynard

Legend
So in the DM directions for the adventures where you talk about the pool of encounters, simply make a statement like: "Parties that have strong martial and magical range attacks should be faced with more of the scout and caster sets. While a melee and or magic buff party will be better challenged with adversaries from the shocktroops and guard sets." Or whatever for the sets that you have created. To facilitate that, you could put a little description on each set, like: "This set will be effective against melee martials while being weak against party offensive magic."
This would be super easy to do in a VTT. But it is a lot of work on the design end.
 

Let's assume all that is true. What are your design solutions for this? What do you do in the level 17, 32 page adventure to help the GM run a successful high level adventure?

Explain the motivations, tactics (including round by round) tactics of the bad guys to start with.

DMs lack experience remember. That's the main issue. Helping them run high level encounters is the place to start.

Here is an example of an encounter in the adventure I was talking about above:
---------
Amaz - Githyanki Gish

Medium humanoid (gith), lawful evil
Armor Class 20 (mithril half plate armor, shield +1)
Hit Points 172 (26d8 + 55)
Speed 30 ft.
STR17 (+3) DEX 16 (+3) CON 14 (+2) INT 18 (+4) WIS 15 (+2) CHA 16 (+3)
Saving Throws Con +7, Int +8, Wis +7
Skills Insight +7, Perception +7, Stealth +8
Senses passive Perception 17
Languages Gith
Challenge 14 Proficiency Bonus (PB) +5
Innate Spellcasting (Psionics). The githyanki's innate spellcasting ability is Intelligence (spell save DC 17, +9 to hit with spell attacks). It can innately cast the following spells, requiring no components:
At will: mage hand (the hand is invisible)
3/day each: jump, misty step, nondetection (self only)
1/day each: plane shift, telekinesis
Spellcasting. The githyanki is an 13th-level spellcaster. Its spellcasting ability is Intelligence (spell save DC 17, +9 to hit with spell attacks). The githyanki has the following wizard spells prepared:

Cantrips (at will): blade ward, light, mind sliver, firebolt
1st level (4 slots): magic missile, shield
2nd level (3 slots): mirror image, levitate
3rd level (3 slots): counterspell, fireball, haste, major image, fly, dispel magic
4th level (3 slots – 2 remaining): dimension door, greater invisibility*
5th level (2 slot): Steel wind strike, mislead
6th level (1 slot – 0 remaining): True seeing*
7th level (1 slot – 0 remaining): Teleport

War Magic. When the githyanki uses its action to cast a spell, it can make one weapon attack as a bonus action. The Githyanki can use its sword as both an Arcane focus, and in place of any Somatic components

Actions

Multiattack. The githyanki makes two longsword attacks.

Longsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +8 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d8 + 3) slashing damage plus 18 (4d8) psychic damage.

Notes: Amaz has a Contingent mirror image set to trigger when a creature that can see him targets him with an attack.

Captain of: Githyanki Skiff – AC 15, 150 HP Damage reduction 10 – Immune Poison and Psychic.

Githyanki Helm – allows casting of Wall of Force 3/day encompassing the upper level by a creature with psionic ability. Once active, it can be raised or lowered by operating a lever (use an object action). Amaz usually leaves this task to his Simulacrum

The Skiff is crewed by Amaz, his Simulacrum (see below) and half a dozen Githyanki Warriors.

Here are Amaz's tactics, and the set up for the encounter:

-----
E1 and 2 (multipart encounter)

An Astral Storm approaches, and Captain Grogbeard elects to take shelter near the colossal corpse of a Dead god. Unfortunately, this corpse also acts as the base of operations for some mean spirited Gith pirates.

All Gith are under the effects of a nondetection spell cast innately using their psionics.

Ki’taa’lek, (Githzerai Kith’raak) seeing the PCs ship approach, orders Amaz (Githyanki Gish) to attack and board the PCs ship while the Kith’raak watches on from the back of his Red dragon Crimsontide. Ki’taa’lek is wise to the ways of adventurers, and figures he’ll wait out the battle to begin with and let the PCs weaken themselves and expend energy on his underlings. In addition he does not want to risk riding Crimsontide into the strong winds of the Astral Storm.

The Githyanki ship speeds out to attack as the PCs pass within 200’ of the Corpse; the Kith’raak and Dragon remain on the Corpse, perched just on the Dead God and watching the battle unfold.

Amaz finds piloting his Astral ship (The Omnipresent Eye) a chore, so he tasks this job to a long since depleted and dejected Simulacrum of himself, (AC 17, 50 HP remaining). The Simulacrum is out of spell slots, but can still cast the identical cantrips to Amaz. Both have a distinctive red mohawk (although the Simulacrums is ratty and unkempt from months of abuse and neglect). The Simulacrum takes the Dodge action each turn it’s not steering the ship (as per its orders) and largely avoids the battle.

Before the attack, the Simualcrum raises the Wall of Force, protecting the crew on deck from most attacks as they approach. The Githyanki ship is much smaller and much faster than the larger PCs ship, and it catches up to them in 1 round, closing to within 15’ and launching grapples. If the PCs can reduce the ship to 0HP before that time, the Githyanki are lost to the Astral storm.

Tactics

Amaz casts major image as the ship departs (using a 7th level slot to make it permanent) of himself under the effects of a mirror image and globe of invulnerability spell issuing orders on the front raised deck of the ship (hopefully luring the PCs into attacking the illusion). The canny Githyanki then casts greater invisibility, remaining in his quarters below on the upper level, invisible and Hiding (Perception check 18 to find – all PCs have disadvantage on perception due to the darkness and the wind so are at -5 to passive) and watching the battle unfold through a window.

Once within 15’ Amaz and 6 x Gith warriors misty step over to the PCs ship, and attack, while the Gish protects them with counterspells, offensive magic and dispels.

On initiative count 20 on the first round of battle after the Gith grapple the PCs ship, the storm hits. On this (and further counts of initiative count 20) the following effects happen, in addition to dim light and heavy winds (see the DMG) that also affect ranged spell attacks:

Round 1: All creatures must attempt a DC15 Dexterity save or be knocked Prone.

Round 2: All creatures must attempt a DC15 Intelligence save or suffer the effects of the Astral Wind

Round 3: The storm dissipates, heavy wind only. At the end of this round, the Kith’raak casts Blur using his psionics, and his dragon takes its readied move action to move 80’ forward (and down) under the PCs ship.

Round 4 The dragon dashes and moves another 160’ positioning itself 80’ from the ship and below it, enabling for a surprise attack from under the vessel the following round while the rider takes the Dodge action.

Ki’lek – Githyanki Kith’rak

Crimsontide – Young Red Dragon



E1: 21,300 (14,200)

E2: 28,600 (14,300)

-------------

The goal is to lure the PCs into targeting the monsters (and not the ship), because Wall of Force protects the monsters, while not stopping the monsters from teleporting on to the PCs ship to attack in return, or stopping Amaz (the Gish) from doing what he wants to do (who is making use of his non detection, greater invisibility, and the cunning use of a permanent illusion spell, to waste PC resources by expending those resources on his wall of force, or by targeting his illusion, or by simply being counterspelled, and buy himself several rounds to do some real damage to the PCs in return).

You've gotta run high level encounters smart. Not just as bags of HP.
 

Reynard

Legend
Explain the motivations, tactics (including round by round) tactics of the bad guys to start with.

DMs lack experience remember. That's the main issue. Helping them run high level encounters is the place to start.

Here is an example of an encounter in the adventure I was talking about above:

--snip--
That's good stuff!

Did you say this was up on DmsGuild?
 

From what I recall, we needed the Sorcerer to Plane Shift us there.

Which I accounted for in the design of the adventure. I factored in he would do it, and it was him wasting a slot (with the illusion of doing something special, and feeling good about it).

Hermes would have done it for you otherwise.

DMs design adventures for their party. If the adventure is set somewhere, the DM intends for you to get there and do the adventure.
 

That's good stuff!

Did you say this was up on DmsGuild?

Nah just on my PC.

I follow a pattern with my adventures. Conceptualise them, tie them together thematicaly, usually whack a doom clock on them, then pick a series of challenges within the XP budget. then flesh out the individual encounters (having regards to the capabilities of my players and their PCs).

I like working canon or lore from the games into them as well. Little nods to 1E or a reference to the Troubles in FR and similar stuff. I kind of want my players walking away with a bit more knowledge of the meta and lore of the game (and not just dealing with encounters).

Been at it since 1E so can usually whack them together in a few hours.
 

Remove ads

Top