D&D General PETITION: Acknowledge Hasbro's hurtful content (Black orcs, Asian yellow orcs, Native American red orcs)—through an Amendatory Bundle [+ thread]

[Bagpuss]

And yet there are people who firmly believe that Italians are all poorly educated criminals, and that Greeks are worse. If they conceptualize of themselves as superior then they are punching down. That they are wrong has little bearing.

And there are people that believe the British all have terrible teeth and terrible food. That Americans are all uneducated, gun crazy and over weight, your point?

A European taking shots at the US over school shooting would be punching down, as would a Frenchman targeting English cuisine. That doesn't preclude my original point.

No it wouldn't. Just making a criticism of some one or something is not punching down. There has to be an imbalance of power.

 

[LordEntrails]

Just so folks can keep in mind the actual scale of how many of these have been sold since posting on DriveThru in 2014 the number is somewhere between 2501 and 5001.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Just so folks can keep in mind the actual scale of how many of these have been sold since posting on DriveThru in 2014 the number is somewhere between 2501 and 5001.

So? They're still making money off it, which opens them up to legitimate critique.

 

[Redwizard007]

And there are people that believe the British all have terrible teeth and terrible food. That Americans are all uneducated, gun crazy and over weight...

And if attacking those characteristics from the lofty heights of an orthodontists convention, site of a school shooting, or hunger strike, respectively, one would be punching down.

...your point?

My point was, is, and shall remain... hold on. This has been going on for so freaking long... here it is.

That's not entirely true. Some people still believe that there are social hierarchies that put one European culture above another, typically with eastern or southern Europeans at the bottom. If it were a Brit or American taking shots at the Greeks or Italians then it could certainly still be punching down. Not as badly as taking shots at historically oppressed people, but still pretty tasteless.

To sum up. Punching down is purely subjective. If the targeted group is/has been/or can be held at disadvantage then the commentor is punching down. It does not matter if one personally agrees that they are at such disadvantage, or likewise has someone at such disadvantage. Only that such disadvantage exists.

No it wouldn't. Just making a criticism of some one or something is not punching down. There has to be an imbalance of power.

And there you have it. An imbalance of power. A disadvantage, if you will.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

To leave going along with the threads premise and on a more positive note. No I won’t sign, on the grounds I think the demands are unreasonable to ask for from people who did not even write the book. The book is bad and racist and I just say don’t buy it.

Okay thanks, you've had your say. I hear you.

Obviously, I don't think the nine actions I laid out are unreasonable at all.
In regard to the "people who DID write the book" (Bruce Heard), if you read the FAQ in the back of the PDF, you'd see that I do suggest that Hasbro collaborate with Bruce in making a beautiful amendatory statement, in a similar way that Hasbro facilitated a racially amendatory statement by R.A. Salvatore in regard to the problematic racial aspects of his Dark Elf novel series. And then he (and Hasbro) moved forward in a positive way. That's the path of action.

I understand that you will not sign the petition.

 

[The Sigil]

In regard to the "people who DID write the book" (Bruce Heard), if you read the FAQ in the back of the PDF, you'd see that I do suggest that Hasbro collaborate with Bruce ... That's the path of action.

I wholeheartedly agree it would be great to see Bruce Heard writing additional material for Mystara again.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

I would say GAZ10 is of substantially less importance culturally than the Iliad.

Agreed!

I'm not a huge fan of censorship,

Hi @Blue Orange, where in my proposal do you see me calling for censorship or revision of the GAZ10 text?

I guess donating the profits might be reasonable.

Agreed.

How much money are they making off this thing?

Good question.
GAZ10 has as "Mithril Seller" badge, which means it's sold betwen 2000 to 4999 copies since 2014.
The product price ranges between $9.99 (for just the PDF) to $29.98 (the undiscounted softcover POD + PDF).
So, over the past 9 years, Hasbro has made roughly between:
$19,980 (if they sold only 2000 PDFs) and $149,870.02 (if they sold 4999 copies of the undiscounted POD + PDF).

 

[Dungeonosophy]

It’s dumb and I would not use it. How is that?

That's fine - thank you!

 

[Redwizard007]

I wholeheartedly agree it would be great to see Bruce Heard writing additional material for Mystara again.

I find myself having mixed feelings about that. I'm all for giving someone a chance to come around, but what I've seen of GAZ10 is pretty ghastly. Honestly, it's like something I might have done in middleschool out of sheer ignorance.

I'm sure Heard would acquit himself better with a more modern approach, but it may be better to just acknowledge that the original was poorly done, even for its time, pull it from sale and allow it to die.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

Is there anything worth saving from GAZ10?

Good question.
To back it up even further: is there anything worth saving about the Broken Lands of Thar?
I'd answer: Yes.
The Broken Lands first appeared seven years prior to GAZ10, as a one-paragraph write-up in Tom Moldvay's and David "Zeb" Cook's X1: The Isle of Dread (1981):

After that, there were sparse and weird references to the Broken Lands in a few random modules.

Only in 1988, with GAZ10, were the Broken Lands filled out--and filled out in this problematic way. Furthermore, the weird and cool references from earlier modules were not really synthesized and included in GAZ10. Where were the "outcasts" mentioned in X1? GAZ10 could have gone in a different direction.

But, if you overlook the real-world racial/cultural ugliness, game-wise GAZ10 was innovative in providing advancement levels for goblinoid/monstrous PCs. It was the template for the Creature Crucible line which came out a year later and which likewise gave advancement levels for all sorts of monstrous PCs (fey, aerial, underwater, and lycanthrope PCs); and, in this regard, GAZ10 was also the predecessor of such products as 2E's Complete Book of Humanoids, and 3E's Savage [sic] Species, where Level Adjustment was introduced, which was kind of a "thing" in 3.5e.

If GAZ10 didn't contain such ugly real-world-based racial slurs, there would be no petition. The issue of general fantasy biological determinism (e.g. orcs are inherently dim-witted and evil) is a separate issue. If that's all that was the matter with GAZ10, then likewise, there would be no petition.