D&D General PETITION: Acknowledge Hasbro's hurtful content (Black orcs, Asian yellow orcs, Native American red orcs)—through an Amendatory Bundle [+ thread]

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ReshiIRE

Adventurer
Asking a publisher to editorialise their work by placing an editorial statement on it works against this basic democratic freedom.
Asking.

Not forcing. Not even pushing for laws against the content. Not influencing unduly or in a deceptive manner. Not privately pushing people.

Merely asking the publisher for this is against democratic freedom?

No, I'm fairly sure acting like this and going in this extreme is significantly more dangerous to democratic freedoms, if one asking another to change their work - or in this case, provide commentary on and change their actions - is thought to be against democracy. Because in some way, that's acting like criticism of a work is dangerous to democracy. And where will the lines on that thought end?

You want to talk about a spacious argument? About suffocating freedom of expression? Acting like this is significantly more likely to do so, because it's giving people permission to whine and to naughty word on and to do worse against people criticising something they like, cause it's against 'freedom'.
 

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Asking.

Not forcing. Not even pushing for laws against the content. Not influencing unduly or in a deceptive manner. Not privately pushing people.

Merely asking the publisher for this is against democratic freedom?

No, I'm fairly sure acting like this and going in this extreme is significantly more dangerous to democratic freedoms, if one asking another to change their work - or in this case, provide commentary on and change their actions - is thought to be against democracy. Because in some way, that's acting like criticism of a work is dangerous to democracy. And where will the lines on that thought end?

You want to talk about a spacious argument? About suffocating freedom of expression? Acting like this is significantly more likely to do so, because it's giving people permission to whine and to naughty word on and to do worse against people criticising something they like, cause it's against 'freedom'.
You can ask, sure. But if that consent is given (which it won't be, but if it is...), that's a problem. Freedom of thought and expression has just been compromised. By that consent, we are now forced to look at a published work through the lens of a single individual.

So my point is: if one asks, and the only positive outcome to the asker results in/sets a precedent for a problematic situation for the well-being of society as a whole, what is the point in asking?

Hopefully you can see the difference between criticism of a work and what the OP is asking for? Criticism is welcome and in fact should be the norm. It is part of what makes a society democratic. The sort of editorialising that is being proposed, thought, ventures into Orwellian territory.
 

ReshiIRE

Adventurer
So freedom of expression can be compromised by someone consenting to change something they wrote if another asks about it?

So in effect - you can't ever take back something you wrote or change it once published, ever, because you're venturing into Orwellian territory - by doing something of your own choice?

That kinda takes away your own freedom to say what you want if you can't take back what you said, no?

We can't update something if we change our mind on our own, or someone or a group of people tell us "hey, this is naughty word", and we agree? We can't include an editorial on our work later?

What if we make a serious factual error and want to correct it, and we don't want our old version to go around anymore and spread misinformation? Are you saying that if I did that, I'd be Orwellian? Is a newspaper updating an online article with a note at the end saying they made an error - or later releasing a correction in a physical article - Orwellian?

Nobody who's censored in 1984 consented to changing their works or views. Nobody who's coerced and controlled in 1984 is convinced through criticism or exchange of ideas to change their mind or what they're writing.

You are saying that if you write or publish something once - at one time - you deciding to revoke that work for any reason is comparable to engaging in dystopian, dangerous thought. No matter you reason for doing that, at all.

Is that not extremely authoritarian? Is that not compelled speech - the inability to take back what you said? Is that really an argument about freedom, if I don't have the freedom to volunterily, with my consent, change and rerelease a work I've produced?

Do authors have rights at all, or do they lose control of everything once they publish something? Does everyone have the right to what they wrote forever, no questions asked, no matter what? Where does my right to speech end?
 

So freedom of expression can be compromised by someone consenting to change something they wrote if another asks about it?

So in effect - you can't ever take back something you wrote or change it once published, ever, because you're venturing into Orwellian territory - by doing something of your own choice?
I haven't read the rest of this, but wow, slow down. What choice are you referring to? The only choice being offered is the one by the petitioner. It is not a choice offered by society at large. That, on it's own, makes this an Orwellian situation.
 

I haven't read the rest of this, but wow, slow down. What choice are you referring to? The only choice being offered is the one by the petitioner. It is not a choice offered by society at large. That, on it's own, makes this an Orwellian situation.

What are you talking about? There is no Orwellian situation here. It's a petition. Please, this conversation is difficult enough without the extreme hyperbole.
 



The nature of the petition is ugly is what I'm saying. I realise now that this is the + thread, but I am getting responses here, so hopefully the mods will be forgiving of that.

I'm sorry, what? You've called it Orwellian thought-policing. That's utterly ridiculous hyperbole to the extreme.

Someone made a petition to put a disclaimer in front of something. We have people comparing this to authoritarian moves on free speech and limiting thoughts.

What this is is detached from reality. I'm utterly amazed at the surreal discourse this entire thread has spawned.
 

I'm sorry, what? You've called it Orwellian thought-policing. That's utterly ridiculous hyperbole to the extreme.

Someone made a petition to put a disclaimer in front of something. We have people comparing this to authoritarian moves on free speech and limiting thoughts.

What this is is detached from reality. I'm utterly amazed at the surreal discourse this entire thread has spawned.
You're being insulting. I will not hold that against you. Truly. Also, I'm not going to respond to that bait. I think this view you're suggesting is the one detached from reality. I'm guessing by the fact that there are still only 14 signatories on this petition (including the guy who created the partition), your opinion might be in the minority. Do with that what you will.

If you can't see how an abstract thought like 'constricting access to information is a problem for society' is an issue, I can't help you.
 

You're being insulting. I will not hold that against you. Truly. Also, I'm not going to respond to that bait. I think this view you're suggesting is the one detached from reality.

Not really? We put disclaimers on things all the time. Wizards already did it. They are ever-present in society to inform people of a variety of things. The hyperbole you present is wild. The idea that this is somehow Orwellian is nonsensical from anyone who has actually read Orwell.

I'm guessing by the fact that there are still only 14 signatories on this petition (including the guy who created the partition), your opinion might be in the minority. Do with that what you will.

I don't think everyone who doesn't sign thinks that this is somehow Orwellian thought-crime, either.

If you can't see how an abstract thought like 'constricting access to information is a problem for society', I can't help you.

No one is, though. That's the whole point: people put disclaimers on things all the time. They don't control people, they inform people. They are everypresent throughout our society, as warnings, explanations, classifications, etc...

Those don't constrict access. Those inform. You can regard or disregard them. There's no forced choice. You're making up some sort of authoritarian system that does not exist.
 

Irlo

Hero
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You can ask, sure. But if that consent is given (which it won't be, but if it is...), that's a problem. Freedom of thought and expression has just been compromised. By that consent, we are now forced to look at a published work through the lens of a single individual.

So my point is: if one asks, and the only positive outcome to the asker results in/sets a precedent for a problematic situation for the well-being of society as a whole, what is the point in asking?

Hopefully you can see the difference between criticism of a work and what the OP is asking for? Criticism is welcome and in fact should be the norm. It is part of what makes a society democratic. The sort of editorialising that is being proposed, thought, ventures into Orwellian territory.
I read 1984. My copy has interpretive commentary and provides historical context. :)
 

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You can ask, sure. But if that consent is given (which it won't be,
Hi Ulorian, here you are not respecting the [+] parameters laid out in the OP.
Saying: "This petition will not succeed. Hasbro will not consent to it." How is that within ENWorld's [+] positive thread policy?
Neither you nor I are magical seers who can definitely see into the future.
One thing is certain: if no one asks and makes an effort, then it certainly will not happen. I understand you wouldn't shed a tear about that!

we are now forced to look at a published work through the lens of a single individual.
Hi, you are misrepresenting the clear statements of my Petition. My Petition calls for a Hasbro (which is not a single individual) to:

"Commission one or more external cultural consultants with real academic credentials, to comb through the book and make a report of the exact nature of its wrongs." (The educational PDF)
AND
"Commission one or more culturally informed designers (who are either themselves experts in the World of Mystara, or in collaboration with aficionados of that world) to write at least a short (e.g. 1-to-3-page) re-imagining of the Broken Lands of Thar, whereby the racist crudities found in GAZ10 are revealed to be totally false propaganda by enemies of the peoples of Thar." (The fictive reframing PDF)

It sounds like you have a very strong aversion to the voice of a single individual. Would you prefer that the academic consulting be a team of 2 or more? And that the designers of the fictive reframing document (1-to-3 pages) likewise be a team of 2 or more? Great! That possibility was included in the Petition from the start.

Or maybe you feel concerned that the "academic consultant" would be me.

Let it be known, that from the start, I never called on Hasbro to just take my Research Document as use it for that purpose. For two reasons: 1) I do not have a Masters degree; 2) I'm not a professional cultural consultant.

However, when folks exclaim that it would be prohibitively expensive to commission a credentialed academic to comb through the work, I do point out that they would be welcome to take my 48-page document as a starting point! Thus saving the commissioned person (or team) much time, and saving Hasbro much expense.

Or maybe the evidence I give in the 48-page Research Document just doesn't feel solid to you. I certainly tried to make it pretty air-tight, pretty solid. But I'm open to hearing where there's a detail amiss, etc. (I'm aiming to address The Glen's and Guachi's in-world points in moment.)

Or are you saying that there is nothing objective in my 21 points? That everything in my Research Document is a subjective individualized opining? If so, I wonder if anyone could ever say anything critical in regard to racial and cultural portayals in pop cultural works that would satisfy your amazingly high standards!

So my point is: if one asks, and the only positive outcome to the asker results in/sets a precedent for a problematic situation for the well-being of society as a whole, what is the point in asking?
Wow, I did not know that calling for a PDF Web Enhancement (educational + additive story reframing) for a toy made for "Ages 10 and Up" would shake the foundations of global democracy!
Hopefully you can see the difference between criticism of a work and what the OP is asking for? Criticism is welcome and in fact should be the norm. It is part of what makes a society democratic.
Are you saying that as long as folks just write out their thoughts (in a blog, but not in a petition), and but nothing actually comes it, then democracy is safe?
It sounds to me like you just throw the word "democratic" out as a "all-powerful" meaningless "flavor word." Who can be against DEMOCRACY? Certainly not I!

But seriously, I hear that you are very very keen advocate for the sanctity of textual transmission, as a library science. (I work in a library.) I can respect that. I do find it baffling though, that a proposal to keep the actual GAZ10 text untouched, to keep it available (and to lower the cost of viewing it), to bundle an educational PDF with it authored by a credentialed professional (not I), and to bundle it with an in-world story frame which actually honors the words which are printed in GAZ10, but, yeah, explains the problematic aspects (e.g. the "scalping" and dumb names: "Chief Sitting Drool") to be gross misrepresentations--that you find this proposal to be "reprehensible." That's pretty strong language, my friend.

Are you also a very very keen defender of the canonicity of all events which have been published in the D&D Multiverse so far? Well, as you may know, TSR and Hasbro have, many many times, re-framed events from a previous publication, using an additive in-world story. E.g Bruce Heard's drastic re-framing of the Mentzerian world map (so that what we thought were countries from the Master Set map, were actually, like, coffee stains or creases on the map or something) to the entire 5E Continuity itself, which is explicitly (as stated by J. Crawford and C. Perkins) actually a distinct timeline from the reality of all other editions, even in regard to its historical and prehistoric events. And within the 5E timeline, the re-framing comments by Volo.

What is your feeling towards those? Is it okay if re-framing stories are done by a salaried design team within a game corporation, then it's okay and sacrosanct, but if suggested by a consumer and educated advocate (re: "random person"), and which, if were to come to pass, would still of course be "vetted" by the salaried design team...then it's a REPREHENSIBLE threat to DEMOCRACY itself?
The sort of editorialising that is being proposed, thought, ventures into Orwellian territory.
Ulorian, the adjective "Orwellian" is not respectful of the [+] laid out in the OP:

NEGATIVE: Stating or implying that bundling an educational/research PDF and a fictive re-framing PDF with the GAZ10 PDF (with that GAZ10 text itself left unchanged) is [...] "1984"

I can be grateful for your helpful boundary pushing...I just added the word "Orwellian" to the OP.
 
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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Ulorian, the adjective "Orwellian" is not respectful of the [+] laid out in the OP:

NEGATIVE: Stating or implying that bundling an educational/research PDF and a fictive re-framing PDF with the GAZ10 PDF (with that GAZ10 text itself left unchanged) is [...] "1984"

I can be grateful for your helpful boundary pushing...I just added the word "Orwellian" to the OP.
OK, I don't know if I'm saying it wrong or not. But this is now the 4th time I've had to step in regarding the same thing, and I can't keep doing it. So, I'm just going to close this thread and get on with my day.

For everybody else: I will clarify once more that you CANNOT issue people instructions, let alone the extensive ream of bright red instructions in the OP. This is not the intent of [+] threads.
 

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