D&D 5E Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…

[Raiztt]

@Raiztt, are you suggesting there is a such thing as a "valid criticism" in defense of slavery?

I don't think you are, but wanted to ask to be sure.

I'm saying that when someone states "X is always Y" they are making a radical claim about not just what is actual, but what is even logically possible.

In general, I think that too often people think that being confident that they are right means that they actually ARE right. You can be confident that you have a correct/true position while still understanding other people have reasons to disagree with you that are rational. It's one thing to be humble and think/believe you are correct, it's another to just state flat out that you ARE correct and everyone else is wrong.

 

[Argyle King]

This... doesn't really have much to do with the topic at hand. I don't know from Equilibrium, the slavery/mind control/etc. of the Matrix was not, in fact, justifiable as anything other than showing who the bad guys were--they were the ones who were enslaving people. It was still a completely evil act.

I'm not saying that it is justified in the Matrix, but I am saying that -in our real world- there are (and have been) points of view which heavily favor authority over individual expression. The Matrix is especially relevant because humans are "slaves" to a fabricated illusion. Many real world arguments (both past and present) are based around the idea that control most be exerted over [insert group of people here] for their own good; for the betterment of the collective whole of a society; and similar reasons.
(Note: I am not advocating such positions. I am simply stating that such positions do exist, and whether or not they are 'justified' depends upon who you ask.)

The idea behind Equilibrium is that everyone is required to take medication, which essentially erases human emotion, because uncontrolled emotion is deemed to be the root cause of crime, violence, and etc. The government has a department which hunts down and destroys any art, writing, or music which is deemed to illicit too much of an emotional response, feeling, or contribute to "sense offenders."

Here in this very thread, the idea that Sorcerer Kings could exert psionic mind control over a popular -and thus create situations similar to the Matrix and Equilibrium- has been expressed as being more acceptable than physical chains. While that was also not an attempt to justify such things, it does illustrate that there are many who would view that as more palatable and acceptable than physical chains, even though it's arguably a worse form of slavery to have your mind and spirit controlled.

 

[Raiztt]

I'm going to put on my "other viewpoint" hat for a moment. While the AIs in the Matrix are shown as Bad, there's also Cypher to consider. Cypher had been "rescued" and given the Red Pill by Morpheus, but regretted it so much he was willing to betray his crew in exchange for being plugged back in and going back to the illusory Matrix. I could see a similar reaction in some slaves, particularly those in positions of relative privilege (entertainers or teachers rather than farm workers or miners).

Taking the first Matrix movie by itself, without regard to the sequels or any other literature, just as a stand-alone...

Cypher is right and Neo isn't just wrong he's actually the villain.

Perception/Experience just is reality. To seem to experience something just is to experience it. So, since it is explicitly stated that the matrix is an exact simulacrum of the 90s - meaning it's not made better or worse, it's identical to, that period of human history it does not appear to me that the matrix is 'less real' than being outside of the matrix. Being inside the matrix doesn't restrict you in anyway way whatsoever that you wouldn't normally be restricted in what they call the "real" world. The matrix has a better quality of life/experience than the 'real' world which is actually uninhabitable by humans/a desolate wasteland.

 

[Argyle King]

I feel like this discussion is muddling the message of the Matrix. Cypher isn't someone wishing to go back into slavery, he's trying to go back to blissful ignorance after deciding he couldn't handle the truth underlying his world. What the Machines do to humans is only barely analogous to slavery anyway, since (most) humans aren't even aware of what's happening.

The analogy gets worse when you realize the Machines created the Matrix after a war instigated by their enslavement and discrimination against them. They consciously don't make their human containment into outright enslavement because they want to maintain (dubious at best) moral superiority over the humans.

That's not muddling at all.

The blissful ignorance is part of the point and a way that such things can (and have been) justified. "It's for the good of [insert people] because [controlling authority] provides a better life and happiness for [insert people] than they are capable of providing for themselves."

Likewise, the second part of what you've said is a position from which the perceived merits of slavery could be argued. Left to their own devices, a group is deemed dangerous and in need of a controlled environment.

There is also (as expressed above) the idea that some people are happier being in a controlled environment -content to give up their autonomy in exchange for happiness. That may even be true for some individuals.

Again, I am not in any way saying that my personal views align with any of that. However, there are points of view from which such things are justifiable.

Whether those points of view are good, evil, or somewhere in between will depend on how you feel a lot of societal questions are best answered. Some of those answers are potentially a lot more complicated in a post-apocalyptic world (or an environment in which basic survival requires more effort). The complicated morality (and associated conflict) of answering those questions is where a setting like Dark Sun could excel through including those elements rather than erasing those elements.

 

[Staffan]

Taking the first Matrix movie by itself, without regard to the sequels or any other literature, just as a stand-alone...

Cypher is right and Neo isn't just wrong he's actually the villain.

Perception/Experience just is reality. To seem to experience something just is to experience it. So, since it is explicitly stated that the matrix is an exact simulacrum of the 90s - meaning it's not made better or worse, it's identical to, that period of human history it does not appear to me that the matrix is 'less real' than being outside of the matrix. Being inside the matrix doesn't restrict you in anyway way whatsoever that you wouldn't normally be restricted in what they call the "real" world. The matrix has a better quality of life/experience than the 'real' world which is actually uninhabitable by humans/a desolate wasteland.

Is it better to live in bliss being ignorant of reality, or to face what really is and have an opportunity (however small) to deal with it?

Bringing things back to slavery: Let's say you are a slave owner thoroughly indoctrinated in the belief that slavery is a good thing, including for the slaves because of its "civilizing" influence. Would I be a villain for trying to explain reality to you?

 

[Raiztt]

Is it better to live in bliss being ignorant of reality, or to face what really is and have an opportunity (however small) to deal with it?

I don't agree with this in premise. The "outside" world is not more real than the matrix. Experience/Perception IS reality.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Some people inside the Matrix can subconciously perceive it's not real and choose to leave, iirc. It's not as real as reality for them, although it is for most people, the way the Architect designed it.

 

[Raiztt]

Some people inside the Matrix can subconciously perceive it's not real and choose to leave, iirc. It's not as real as reality for them, although it is for most people, the way the Architect designed it.

Right but this is just question begging and equivocating on the term 'real'. Without begging the question, what quality does the outside world have that the matrix lacks that would make it more real?

If you're in the matrix and you are experiencing pain, and someone tells you "Well, actually, you're not really in pain because this is just a simulation and you're not really being harmed" you're not going to care because to seem to be in pain just is to be in pain.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Right but this is just question begging and equivocating on the term 'real'. Without begging the question, what quality does the outside world have that the matrix lacks that would make it more real?

You can't have your body hijacked by an Agent on a whim, I guess.

If you're in the matrix and you are experiencing pain, and someone tells you "Well, actually, you're not really in pain because this is just a simulation and you're not really being harmed" you're not going to care because to seem to be in pain just is to be in pain.

It is real pain in a way, being hurt in the Matrix can hurt you in the real world, but in the end it is indeed all fake, that's why Neo and Trinity can bend reality and resurrect people, they're just the ones that can see completly through the illusion.

Matrix gets very convoluted with the people being trapped, but not really trapped since the machines let them leave anyway and it's all a ruse to get rid of the ones that reject the system, and they made The One to keep the cycle going, but there are two Ones, etc. Not sure how this'd relate to real slavery or fantasy slavery in Dark Sun.

 

[Raiztt]

hm