D&D 5E The Minimum* to Keep 5E at a Low Power Level?

I agree with what @J-H said, and would just add that you can change the stakes. They settle in for the night? Sounds like a great time for an ambush. A dispel magic will take care of any tiny hut they put up, or any number of other options. Delay attacking? The treasure is gone or the number of guards have been tripled and a trap has been laid. The longer they take, the greater the risk up to them facing a small army because their target knew they were coming.

Don't make the mistake of assuming the opponents are static and will remain untriggered until combat starts. Don't run it like a video game where you have to enter the cave before anything happens, have logical reactions to the PCs actions or lack therein.

I 100% agree with everything you're saying, but it sounds like, possibly, the players in the group complain when the OP does that!

Truth of the matter is, everyone has to be on the same page as to what they want out of the game. To these players, it seems: sneak up on bad guys and overwhelm them with sheer awesomeness before they can even react - hasn't gotten old yet!

Until it does, there might just be a conflict of wants/expectations here, more that any power balance problems.
 

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I 100% agree with everything you're saying, but it sounds like, possibly, the players in the group complain when the OP does that!

Truth of the matter is, everyone has to be on the same page as to what they want out of the game. To these players, it seems: sneak up on bad guys and overwhelm them with sheer awesomeness before they can even react - hasn't gotten old yet!

Until it does, there might just be a conflict of wants/expectations here, more that any power balance problems.
If the players just want to play the game on "Daddy don't hurt me" easy mode and won't change, then the DM needs to decide if they want to continue running for the group.

The OP has been asking variations of this question off and on for a while now. They are either unwilling or unable to take any action on the advice given so my answer is more for others reading the thread.
 

I have quite a few magic items but they are almost all common/uncommon items. I like it when the party have options that give them interesting new choices, so something like a balloon pack is fun. If the item is just a straight upgrade, like a +1 sword, I'm way less interested.

My current level 6 campaign has one magic weapon at the moment, and the artificer infused it. But they have lots of fun little items, from a cloak of billowing to dust of sneezing and choking.

Having few magic weapons automatically makes a lot of fights more challenging because of resistances and immunities. As well, it makes the party's monk a lot more valuable, and requires them generally to think more strategically.

I'm considering house ruling that if a creature is immune to non-magical weapon damage, it is still resistant to magical weapon damage unless the weapon is specifically enchanted against that particular type of creature. So something like a "sword of fiend-slaying +1" would be coveted.
 
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The problem may be self correcting given enough time. Being able to cut through any enemy with littler risk or effort is fun for a while, but starts to get boring/stale at some point

As someone mentioned above, making the monsters tougher is the best way to accomplish your goal. Start by double the monster's hp and triple their attack damage, and increase their A/C by 3. If that's not enough, keep escalating these factors and increase the action economy to a 1:1.5 ratio. Eventually you'll reach parity.
 

I've written a few times regarding not being able to challenge my groups. (Most recently in this thread: D&D 5E - A Mess of OP Characters (magic items, rest mechanics, etc.))
I want to work on a house rule document to present before the start of the next campaign to keep this type of experience from happening again.
What am I trying to avoid?
  • Game unbalancing magic items
  • Having to restructure the game and redesign monsters after 5th level or so
  • Accommodating a fun and challenging experience for 6-7 players
  • Preventing spellcasters from going nova easily
  • Short adventuring days
I'm getting intense feedback from the gritty rest mechanics. I also suggested rolling for stats, and that was scoffed at. I don't expect the group to be amenable to other systems, such as the OSR variety.

I still want to DM for this group. They really enjoy it - but it's hard to keep pace with their power level. Even in the default game, they easily get so overpowered that I can't adapt.

Gritty Rests. This is only a pacing change, but the pacing change REALLY MATTERS.

Here is a slightly modified version:

A SHORT REST requires a night's sleep or equivalent. When you do a short rest, you can expend HD to regain HP (adding your constitution bonus), regain short-rest resources. In addition, you can roll all HD you had expended before you started your short rest; any that land on an odd value of 3 or more are recovered.

If your max HP are reduced, you can expend a single HD that does not heal you and regain that many lost HD (add your constitution modifier). If you are exhausted, you can expend a single HD and regain a level of exhaustion.

A LONG REST requires 1 week of safety. During this time you can do downtime activities, cast up to 1 leveled spell per day (or similar magical abilities), and occasionally use cantrips (and similar magical abilities). Anything moderately intensive (repeated use of cantrips, a single short combat, travel) delays the end of the long rest by 2 days for every day it occurs.

During a long rest, each night counts as a short rest. At the end of the long rest, you regain any HD expended and all of your HP, even those expended during the long rest.

---

Next, as a DM, your job isn't to make ENCOUNTERS.

It is to make CHAPTERS and SCENES.

A SCENE is a set of linked encounters. What makes a group of encounters a SCENE and linked is that once the SCENE is triggered (PCs engage it? Or even the opportunity is offered, and the PCs decline) waiting a day means that there are CONSEQUENCES. Your job when building a SCENE is to work out possible CONSEQUENCES before you finish the design. The CONSEQUENCES of a SCENE are as important as the terrain is for an encounter; you could wing it, but it does really matter.

The SCENE changes, usually in a way that the PCs 'story-wise' wouldn't like, but definitely one that impacts the world.

Raiders attacking a settlement can be a scene, consisting of multiple groups of raiders, and possibly the main group carrying away treasure.

SCENES consist of 1-4 encounters. Their difficulty looks like:
Easy: 2 medium encounters.
Medium: 3 medium encounters
Hard: 4 medium encounters
Deadly: 5+ medium encounters.

Easy encounters count as 0.5 medium, hard as 1.5 and deadly as 2+ medium encounters.

So a single Deadly encounter is an Easy scene.

A CHAPTER is a series of linked SCENES. What makes a group of SCENES a CHAPTER and linked is that once the CHAPTER is triggered, waiting more than a few days (but at most a week) means there are CONSEQUENCES. These CONSEQUENCES should be larger in scope than SCENE consequences usually.

A CHAPTER should consist of 1-4 SCENEs. Their difficulty looks like:
Easy: 2 medium scenes.
Medium: 3 medium scenes.
Hard: 4 medium scenes.
Deadly: 5+ medium scenes.

Easy scenes count as 0.5 medium, hard as 1.5 and deadly scenes as 2+ medium scenes.

So a single Deadly scene is an easy chapter.

...

A CHAPTER could make up a piece of an adventure, like a dungeon (plus travel back and forth), or be an entire adventure.

The point is that by building using these larger pieces, nova potential becomes an option that players who do it end up with repeated CONSEQUENCEs.

Early on you'll want to telegraph the consequences, but players should catch on that if they disengage from a series of events before they wrap it up they are saying "we lose". It is like running away from an encounter.

...

The last change would be to require spending a HD when you use healing magic. The spent HD (plus your con mod) adds to the amount healed. The exceptions is the Heal spell, Mass Heal, the Regeneration Spell and Power Word: Heal. I also allow Cure Wounds to use the target's expended HD instead of d8s if it is larger (as a small bonus).

If you have no HD, all healing magic (except that short list above) can do is stabilize you.

This prevents using healing magic (be it potions or anything else) to free up your healing budget completely. Attrition is a thing. It also makes using healing spells a bit more fun.

(This is one of the reasons why you can recover some HD on a short rest; if you are healed during an adventuring day and use up all your HD, a night's rest won't heal you further but will recover some HD. So you'll be game for it.)

...

The next part is avoid +X weapons and armor like the plague. A +2d6 fire damage sword does less damage to 5e's balance than a +2 sword does. +X weapons and armor are far more mechanically impactful than they feel like. Even attunement items with +X are very strong; and the fact that the baseline stuff isn't is bad.

Ie, Adamantine and Mithril armor, never +1 armor.

The same goes for save DC modifying items.

You are in charge of magic items. Don't distribute anything that adds to save DC, AC or to-hit rolls. An item that adds a bonus to saves isn't as bad unless the party is saving optimizing fiends.

To this end, also don't have a magic item shopping list. All magic items should either be placed there by you intentionally, or rolled randomly on a table.

For a party of 7, 2 randomly rolled or picked by you magic items of the appropriate tier per level is more than plenty (plus a half-dozen consumables).

If there is a magic item store, roll the items for sale. Consider any item for sale to be equivalent to treasure.

The prices on magic items? Use the DMG ranges. Don't be afraid to use a higher or lower value. (Discount consumables by 50% off the DMG prices). The gp value is and should be arbitrary. Sometimes they'll find an amazing item for very little gp, other times they won't want to buy it because it costs too much. Both are perfectly ok.

...

Find ways to use gold to change the world. Beating a scene or the like by spending gold on something should be encouraged! But more than that -- setting up bases and the like should be rewarded.

Provide problems that can be solved by spending gold far easier than violence.

...

Have each PC have 2 bonds. Once per session, a PC can invoke their bond to make a d20 reroll, but the price is telling a short story about their bond and what it means to their PC in the form of a flashback. This flashback may be slightly unreliable narrator if needed.

This encourages PCs to expose their characters to the party. The rerolled d20 need not be related to the bond in any way.

(I'm just trying to encourage cooperative storytelling with this mechanic. And "I get to reroll a d20" is a huge incentive for the Player to remember to do this!)

As a DM, you can offer a bonus inspiration based on bonds. You can even be explicit about using it as a bribe. "Based on your bond 'I love animals', if you rescue the horse (alive) that the princess rode off on you'll get inspiration". You'll note that this requires that YOU remember the PCs bonds -- the bit where every session they remind you what they are with a story is also for you. :)

...

So now your party no longer is covered in broken magic items, gets worn out by a long series of adventures before they can recover, and you have hooks into them you can use to bribe them to finish quests.

The final bit is to slow down advancement. The above will do this pretty naturally.

It should take 1 chapter per level up to level 5 or so, then 2 chapters per level up to level 11, then back to about 1 chapter per level up to 20.

This is about 25 chapters, or 75 scenes, or about 200 encounters. If you do 1-2 encounters per real life week, this is 2 and a half years before they hit 20.

It is almost 150 encounters before they hit level 11, or almost 2 years to reach level 11 at this pace.

You should understand tiers of play.

At T1, your problems should be local and pushed at the PCs.

At T2, you should offer 2-3 different problems at once that could take 1-2 weeks of travel to reach, and you can't solve all of them. Keep on adding problems (quests) as they solve them, and have consequence go off of the ones they don't choose to solve. They win everything they do, but they lose everything they don't.

This means that "ok, we take a long rest" starts to hurt.

They are losing because it takes too much time to solve each problem. They should be aware of this. Whatever big problem there is is only winning because the heros can't be everywhere at once.

You'll introduce T3 scale issues here as things they cannot plausibly solve. Just hints, or PCs will run right at it and die.

At T3, travel problems go away. Now you can throw bigger scale problems at them and they are capable of beating them. Tier 2 problems are now a resource problem.

You'll want to introduce a bigger issue in T2 that seems out of scope (or hinted at), and in T3 it becomes more real as something they can do something about. Maybe beat, maybe not. Also, introduce something even bigger, where defeating the impossible problem from T2 would barely put a dent into it.

T4 is the climax of the story. Here is when the big issue introduced in T2 becomes something small. A T2->T3 enemy might be worth allying to deal with a T4 problem.

"A pit fiend with a legion of demons is on the march, a mated pair of tarrasques has awakened and a dozen huge dragons are fighting in a mountain near the Captial city, and the ancient king of dornland has returned but is looking a little ... pale." might be a T4 scale chapter. All of them are happening at once. Dealing with the Tarrasques is a single easy SCENE, but it will require some resources.

In 3d4 days each, the legion of demons destroys the dwarven homelands, the tarrasques cause a volcano to erupt when they lay an egg (a few 1000 km^2 are buried in ash and lava, and an ice age starts), the dragon's summon tiamat, and the lich king converts dornland into a post apocalyptic hell. I mean, if the PCs do nothing.

Solving those 3-4 problems is enough to level from 17 to 18. But they don't get a long rest when trying to solve the above.

So sure, go nova. How many novas you got?
 

I have quite a few magic items but they are almost all common/uncommon items. I like it when the party have options that give them interesting new choices, so something like a balloon pack is fun. If the item is just a straight upgrade, like a +1 sword, I'm way less interested.

My current level 6 campaign has one magic weapon at the moment, and the artificer infused it. But they have lots of fun little items, from a cloak of billowing to dust of sneezing and choking.

Having few magic weapons automatically makes a lot of fights more challenging because of resistances and immunities. As well, it makes the party's monk a lot more valuable, and requires them generally to think more strategically.

I'm considering house ruling that if a creature is immune to non-magical weapon damage, it is still resistant to magical weapon damage unless the weapon is specifically enchanted against that particular type of creature. So something like a "sword of fiend-slaying +1" would be coveted.
I agree with giving interesting choices versus +NUMBERS items.

I disagree with low magic item counts, though.
1. Need. Spellcasters can function just fine at level 20 with zero items. They get a bit squishier, and maybe their saves and DCs aren't quite as good, but they can still handle a flying dragon that doesn't land, a 100' chasm with no bridge, an incorporeal enemy that does hit and run, and a fight that takes place over a lava pool.
A 20th level martial with no magic weapon, no magic item to boost mobility, and no magic items to boost defenses against magic, ends up much less useful in many of the more interesting scenarios. Fighters, rogues, barbarians, and the like get much more versatility and power from their item than casters do. There is no full-caster equivalent of a Flametongue, Vorpal Sword, or Girdle of Fire Giant Strength. Martials don't have simple access to element resistances, temporary AC boosts, or non-item mobility boosts unless the party caster gives it to them.
*partial casters are an exception, a vengeance paladin I DM for likes to use Dimension Door and has Misty Stepped to the back of a dragon before.

2. Fun. One of the reasons D&D is fun for some people is the progression of power as they get more powerful. For spellcasters, this is obvious - more and better spells that are more powerful. One of the complaints against high level druids and clerics is the limited spell list making progression not as fun once they're at about 7th level spells.
Fighters, barbarians, rogues, etc. don't have as much of a power progression curve, UNLESS they are picking up powerful magical items along the way as part of that progression. Arthur gets Excalibur, Ramgar gets the Undead Bane Spear of Disruption, the Paladin gets a Holy Avenger, etc. Those items are meaningful progression, just as the ability to go from Fireball to Firestorm is for a caster. A low-magic item game is not as fun for non-caster classes for most players.
 

I've written a few times regarding not being able to challenge my groups. (Most recently in this thread: D&D 5E - A Mess of OP Characters (magic items, rest mechanics, etc.))

I want to work on a house rule document to present before the start of the next campaign to keep this type of experience from happening again.
What am I trying to avoid?
  • Game unbalancing magic items
  • Having to restructure the game and redesign monsters after 5th level or so
  • Accommodating a fun and challenging experience for 6-7 players
  • Preventing spellcasters from going nova easily
  • Short adventuring days
I'm getting intense feedback from the gritty rest mechanics. I also suggested rolling for stats, and that was scoffed at. I don't expect the group to be amenable to other systems, such as the OSR variety.

I still want to DM for this group. They really enjoy it - but it's hard to keep pace with their power level. Even in the default game, they easily get so overpowered that I can't adapt.
Welcome to the club. As others have said, 5E is very much a superhero fantasy game. To get it to do what you want you have two choices: 1) drastically house rule the core game, or; 2) drastically ramp up the monsters.

Your players will likely rebel against any and all house rules you introduce to balance the game. If they like 5E, the chances are better than good that they like the unbalanced game. They like the "we always and easily win" game play that 5E provides. One easy solution is a thing called Epic 5. In Epic 5 you stop advancing the PCs at 5th level. That's the level cap. Characters are considered epic level at 5th level. You progress story from there, not character mechanics. Some variants will have you give out feats or the like instead of levels. But that's up to you. This will solve a few of your problems, but not all. And will likely not be received well by your players. Because, again, they likely enjoy the very unbalanced game play you want to fix.

What am I trying to avoid?
  • Game unbalancing magic items
So don't include them. Handing out magic items is 100% on the referee. If you run a module that includes a magic item you don't want in your game, don't give it out. If your players have read the module and expect the magic item, that's another problem entirely.
  • Having to restructure the game and redesign monsters after 5th level or so
Official 5E monsters are laughably bad. There are heaps of 3PP monster books. Look at some of those. Or homebrew your own.
  • Accommodating a fun and challenging experience for 6-7 players
5E is designed around 4 players. So unless you're doubling the monsters in all encounters, every fight will be a cakewalk. Most modules are designed around the assumption of 4 players and most encounters are medium difficulty. If you're running those encounters RAW, it's going to be incredibly easy for your 6-7 players to walk all over every encounter. Double the monsters to get a medium encounter for your number of players. Then double the monsters' HP and number of attacks to make that medium encounter a hard or deadly encounter. Don't let the name fool you. "Deadly" in 5E should have been the "medium" default.
  • Preventing spellcasters from going nova easily
  • Short adventuring days
The #1 problem of 5E. Gritty realism healing is one option. Gritty realism while exploring, normal rules in town is another option. Going more explicitly gamey and only letting the PCs rest after they've have the requisite number of encounters per adventuring day (6-8 medium encounters) is another. The game is explicitly designed to be balanced around those 6-8 medium encounters per long rest. It's a design flaw that allows players to nova and long rest after every fight. And they will...because they can. And they'll whine if you don't let them. Another option is to remove leomund's tiny hut. Another is to keep the world alive even as the PCs try to rest, i.e. the monsters don't all sleep when the PCs do, so they will come and harass the PCs. If they don't sleep somewhere absolutely safe, they will be harassed and not be able to rest, i.e. don't treat the world like a video game and don't let the players treat the world like a video game. Most of these will get a lot of push back from your players. Because, again, they probably like the superhero power fantasy of 5E.

So the other way to go is to lean into the superhero power fantasy of 5E, but also adjust things to (mostly) get what you want. Sound paradoxical? It's not. Look at the adventuring day. Take that and use it as your baseline to build one encounter. Give your PCs the ability to short rest as some kind of action, but no more than twice per long rest. Regular action, bonus action, free action, reaction...whatever. This brings your short rest classes up in power to match your long rest classes, but you use the adventuring day to build one encounter thereby drastically ramping up the difficulty (the challenge you want).

It sounds like you and your players want different things from the game. 5E suits them, but doesn't seem to suit you. It's not hard to get players to try other systems, especially ones similar to what they're already playing. When this campaign is done, offer to run a different game. Most will jump on board. Some won't. Better to run for a smaller group with a system you enjoy running rather than constantly having to fight the system to get it to do what you want.
 

I've written a few times regarding not being able to challenge my groups. (Most recently in this thread: D&D 5E - A Mess of OP Characters (magic items, rest mechanics, etc.))
I want to work on a house rule document to present before the start of the next campaign to keep this type of experience from happening again.
What am I trying to avoid?
  • Game unbalancing magic items
  • Having to restructure the game and redesign monsters after 5th level or so
  • Accommodating a fun and challenging experience for 6-7 players
  • Preventing spellcasters from going nova easily
  • Short adventuring days
I'm getting intense feedback from the gritty rest mechanics. I also suggested rolling for stats, and that was scoffed at. I don't expect the group to be amenable to other systems, such as the OSR variety.

I still want to DM for this group. They really enjoy it - but it's hard to keep pace with their power level. Even in the default game, they easily get so overpowered that I can't adapt.

Dont use rolled stats.

For a lower powered game, use point buy and consider making a 13 cost 2 points and a 14 (the new max) cost 3 points.

To compensate, have ASI increases add +2 to 1 stat, and +1 to another (this favors Fighters and Rogues, and devalues feats).

Dont stack bonuses from ammo and ranged weapons, and shields and armor. This makes things like adamantine armor or funky weapons stand out more and keeps numbers more manageable.

Death occurs if your HP total is reduced to 0, and more than 10 damage remains. Increase the threshold by +1 per D8 HD, +2 per D10 HD and +3 per d12HD (so a 6th level Fighter has a threshold of 22).

If you really want to go old school consider being raised from the dead inflicts a -2 Con penalty (permanent) and then a DC 5 Con ability check to successfully resurrect (mirroring system shock/ resurrection survival odds from 1E).

I'm definitely a fan of Gritty realism rest variant. It nips Nova tactics in the bud and makes Doom clocks easier to build around.

Consider making all costly spell components expended on casting.

Enforce encumbrance.
 

I've seen DM's do milestone leveling to slow down advancement, limit magic items etc. None of it really works. If you want a low power system find another system. but if your group isn't going to leave 5e then start playing your encounters intelligently. Have enemies ambush them, hire assassin's steal their things. Make sure your enemies are equiped with lots of consumables that give them options. As some have said if they stop for a long time then let the bad guys take advantage of that as well. My favorite table rule for combat of high level/experienced players is a 2 minute hourglass from an old game. when someone's initiative comes up I flip the hourglass if they don't make a decision in two minutes they go to the bottom of initiative and I move on. If the don't come up with something the second time I flip the hourglass they lose the round in indecision. It's supposed to be combat don't let them skim through the entire spell book and consider options make them decide quickly.
 

I agree with giving interesting choices versus +NUMBERS items.

I disagree with low magic item counts, though.
1. Need. Spellcasters can function just fine at level 20 with zero items. They get a bit squishier, and maybe their saves and DCs aren't quite as good, but they can still handle a flying dragon that doesn't land, a 100' chasm with no bridge, an incorporeal enemy that does hit and run, and a fight that takes place over a lava pool.
A 20th level martial with no magic weapon, no magic item to boost mobility, and no magic items to boost defenses against magic, ends up much less useful in many of the more interesting scenarios. Fighters, rogues, barbarians, and the like get much more versatility and power from their item than casters do. There is no full-caster equivalent of a Flametongue, Vorpal Sword, or Girdle of Fire Giant Strength. Martials don't have simple access to element resistances, temporary AC boosts, or non-item mobility boosts unless the party caster gives it to them.
*partial casters are an exception, a vengeance paladin I DM for likes to use Dimension Door and has Misty Stepped to the back of a dragon before.

2. Fun. One of the reasons D&D is fun for some people is the progression of power as they get more powerful. For spellcasters, this is obvious - more and better spells that are more powerful. One of the complaints against high level druids and clerics is the limited spell list making progression not as fun once they're at about 7th level spells.
Fighters, barbarians, rogues, etc. don't have as much of a power progression curve, UNLESS they are picking up powerful magical items along the way as part of that progression. Arthur gets Excalibur, Ramgar gets the Undead Bane Spear of Disruption, the Paladin gets a Holy Avenger, etc. Those items are meaningful progression, just as the ability to go from Fireball to Firestorm is for a caster. A low-magic item game is not as fun for non-caster classes for most players.
My first words were "I have quite a few magic items" in my campaigns, so I am not sure if you are addressing me. I think your points are valid, but not super relevant to my campaigns because we seldom go past level 10, and I think that any level 20 campaign is going to be a unique beast that has been heavily tailored by the DM. This game is not really designed for parity at high levels; at best you just want to make sure that every player can make a valuable contribution. A holy avenger on a level 20 paladin certainly seems reasonable to me.
 

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