James Gasik
We don't talk about Pun-Pun
There is the possibility that Eldritch Blast and Chaos Bolt will get unique subclass variations; Monsters of the Multiverse has NPC Warlocks with different Eldritch Blasts based on their Pact, as I recall.
D&D (2024) Sorcerers getting Chaos Bolt automatically
- Thread starter Henadic Theologian
- Start date
Neonchameleon
Legend
The fundamental problem is that Wizard should really be a Sorcerer sub-class, with wizards being the sorcerers who get their magic from books and and being scholarly and whose big thing is their ability to change their spells to any in those books. Strong subclasses like the necromancer really work best as sorcerers with their limited range of magic and their metamagic than they do with their focus on an incredibly narrow range of spells.
Frozen_Heart
Hero
I think a lot of the problem is that everyone has a different view of sorcerer in their heads.
The trouble here is that those three all conflict with each other. A and B don't want C, because they're picturing Harry Potter or Ran al'thor. Not some guy with tentacles or dragon scales. They want 'arcane magic' rather than themed magic. But A and C don't want B, as they don't want to be turning into potted plants or ending the campaign 2ft taller than they started. And C doesn't want other themes of magic forced onto their themed caster.
In trying to scoop up so many identities of caster into a single class, sorcerer has ended up with no real identity which anyone is happy with.
- Lots of people want a wizard without a spellbook. The problem being that's not distinct enough to be a class. But with the way wizard is written, the spellbook isn't something which can be gotten rid of.
- Lots of other people view them as conduits of 'magic' the same way a wizard learns 'magic'. Except unlike the wizard it's not fully in control, which is where the wild magic aspect comes from.
- And other people (I'm in this camp) view sorcerers as individuals who have got magic from a very specific source like dragons, celestials, or ithilids, and their magic should all be very heavily themed around that.
The trouble here is that those three all conflict with each other. A and B don't want C, because they're picturing Harry Potter or Ran al'thor. Not some guy with tentacles or dragon scales. They want 'arcane magic' rather than themed magic. But A and C don't want B, as they don't want to be turning into potted plants or ending the campaign 2ft taller than they started. And C doesn't want other themes of magic forced onto their themed caster.
In trying to scoop up so many identities of caster into a single class, sorcerer has ended up with no real identity which anyone is happy with.
Neonchameleon
Legend
The thing is that "Not fully in control" is something that can easily be an opt-in. You can do it by subclass, and you can do it by metamagic, and you can do it by spell choice. I don't think that anyone in group C begrudges the Wild Sorcerer being a subclass or has a problem with the idea of Chaos Bolt as an optional cantrip - or even having a "pseudo-subclass" choice the way nu-clerics work.
So, as someone firmly in camp C, I'm more than happy with there being camp B options within the sorcerer the way there have been for the past two editions. I'm just unhappy with turning it into the class. And the thing is that if you want Rand Al'Thor there's no reason they shouldn't be a type of sorcerer - or one of wizard.
So, as someone firmly in camp C, I'm more than happy with there being camp B options within the sorcerer the way there have been for the past two editions. I'm just unhappy with turning it into the class. And the thing is that if you want Rand Al'Thor there's no reason they shouldn't be a type of sorcerer - or one of wizard.
James Gasik
We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Is that true though? Couldn't the Wizard store the knowledge of their spells in some other way? A stick bearing carved runes, a gem imbued with data, a mind palace within the Wizard's head, or even an astral construct that exists outside of normal space-time?
You could totally get rid of the traditional spellbook on a narrative and mechanical level, and still have a class that functions in a very similar way. All the spellbook consists of is:
*A subset of the Wizard spell list from which they can prepare spells.
*A money sink for Wizards who wish to know more than 4ish spells of a given level.
*A means by which the character can be deprived of the use of their class abilities.
Constrast and compare to Divine casters, and this really is a sacred cow that could be tossed.*
*Please, no arguments about "y u want make wizzard stronker". This isn't the thread for a balance discussion about Wizards, and if you really wanted to balance the class, the spellbook is a poor way to go about it.
Frozen_Heart
Hero
My ideal solution would be making 'A' a wizard subclass. But also changing the spellbook itself to flavour so that it's no longer essential. A spellbook could even be a magic item or piece of adventuring gear or an arcane focus. Something which is beneficial for a wizard to have, but not required for the class to even function.
Then 'C' would be its own class, with 'B' being a subclass within that. And as the people in group 'A' are then playing their own thing, the sorcerers identity and power budget can get pushed far more into its bloodline than it currently is.
But of course I'm biased. Because 'C' is what I view sorcerers as. Other people would have different ideal solutions.
Then 'C' would be its own class, with 'B' being a subclass within that. And as the people in group 'A' are then playing their own thing, the sorcerers identity and power budget can get pushed far more into its bloodline than it currently is.
But of course I'm biased. Because 'C' is what I view sorcerers as. Other people would have different ideal solutions.
Part of the problem is the lore and the mechanics.
The "original" lore was that wizards are all B. A wizard had a magic gift that a senior wizard had to teach them how to use.
However this was both limiting and nonsensical as every race could use arcane magic but didn't have the infrastructure to train wizards . Then of course multiclassing and feats, anyone can learn to cast spells without schooling.
So arcanist were split into 3, the scholarly ungifted A, the talented B with a C backstory, ...and the warlock
When this happened, D&D should have made distinct mechanics for sorcerers. But D&D being a game that says a Ranger can't heal without casting Cure Wounds, that didn't havppen.
3.5e had a set of flavorful ultra-specialists that were basically sorcerers with a fixed but rather large (but strongly focused) spell list, and with a set of thematic class abilities. They were the Warmage (all the booms), Beguiler (illusions and enchantments, had some thieving stuff going on) and the Dread Necromancer (gradually gaining most of a lich's abilities over the course of 20 levels). I miss those.
Frozen_Heart
Hero
They tried to give them unique mechanics. The 5e playtest sorcerer was exactly this.
But all the people who wanted sorcerer to just be 'wizard, but hot' complained. So instead we got poor wizard with metamagic glued on.
I think you can fix the sorcerer pretty easily just by making each subclass a bit more unique and crunchy. Every sorcerous origin should come with extra spells and extra magical effects. Aberrant Mind from Tasha's is a good start for what the class should look like. Done right, sorcerer subclasses could be the most distinct of any class, at which point the existence of "sorcerer" as a class is justified IMHO.
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