?
Of course you could. Being good at tripping and other tactical maneuvres etc still isn't going to prevent the fighter being overshadowed in combat by the blademaster, his simulacrum, and both of their summons for example. Being able to rush around striking multiple opponents won't stop blade wind strike dealing more damage and ignoring barriers, or just dropping a fireball into the mob.
There is no reason the fighter needs more martial prowess.
If a fighter and a melee wizard or melee bard pull out a weapon and attack they should be close to one another. There is no reason the fighter should be a lot better.
You are bringing up completely unrelated things. If you want the fighter to have summons so he can be as good a summoner as a wizard fine I get it, but that is not at all related to how good they should be in combat with weapons.
It is like you are saying - the fighter is deficient because he has no spells, so I want him to be better at something completely different.
Why? Do they get jealous when they see clerics healing and feel left out because despite being spellcasters, they can't do the cleric's speciality as well as the cleric can?
I would not be against giving other casters healing, or giving fighters healing for that matter to bring them up to a clerics level.
Here you are talking about an area Wizards and Warlocks are deficient it - healing. That is a good reason to give them healing magic.
But your argument would be like giving Warlocks and Wizards (and them alone) combat maneuvers to make up for the fact they don't have any healing.
I do not know your social group, but I very much doubt that very few of my acquaintances and/or users of this forum are going to feel entitled to be able to do everything another class can do in addition to their own class abilities.
I am having trouble reasoning through all that, but the rules are very good with respect to martial combat already and no class can do "everything" a fighter can do. A fighter has his things that no other class can do.
I think a lot of players like the rules, including the fighter design, as it currently is. I think the people who think fighters should have more martial prowess as a base class ability are in the minority. Perhaps not on this thread, but in the game I think they are.
There are also a lot of players who like to play casters that can keep it close with a fighter when using weapons and you are taking that away from them and really doing it for no reason that I can see. Why take that away from them?
Ah. Here we go. This is very telling. - I think that it is worth checking something about you that people haven't asked before:
Do you think that the Fighter should actually exist as a class? If you're insistent that the other classes should be masters of tactical martial combat as well as being supreme spellcasters, or the mortal embodiment of divine powers, then there isn't really room for a character that is just that martial master and nothing else.
Yes I do think it should exist, it is very popular, I play it often.
There is plenty of room for a fighter and casters that are near their equal in martial combat with weapons (when designed for it). That is the whole idea of Hexblades and Bladesingers. More over, there is no downside to keeping them both in the game at the same time without putting the fighter class on a different level.
Why would you suggest there is no room for it when people are playing it? The rules right now don't give the fighter these special powers yet many, many, many people have fun playing the fighter as is. Are you suggesting those players should not be allowed to play the current fighter?
If everyone who wants to melee can do anything that the fighter can, as well as their own, powerful class abilities, then why have a fighter at all?
Because players like playing them. You might not, but a lot of people do.
If you do believe that the fighter does have a place as an equal in adventuring prowess to the other classes, what do you believe the mechanical expression of their class abilities should be?
I do not think a class without spells should be an equal in adventuring prowess to a class with spells. That is a poor design in a fantasy setting IMO. Spells are meant to powerful and game-changing.
If that is a problem (and it isn't really for me), then giving the fighter spells to equal the other classes is the way to fix it instead of having them run away with martial combat.
Of course not: the numbers used were just used to try to help you understand how zero-sum changes as you talked about in your previous post aren't necessarily a bad thing even if contribution goes down for some people.
It is a bad thing IMO, especially if done this way.
If you want to boost the fighter, boost him in areas he is deficient in and behind other classes, not in an area he is already supreme in.
But it is not: above you outright object to the fighter getting any unique capability in combat, whether or not it would lead to a fighter contributing equal, or less than the other classes.
To start with the fighter has unique capabilities already - specifically extra fighting styles unavailable to other classes, action surge and more attacks at high levels.
I am against them getting any more unique capabilities specific to martial combat as this is already enough and arguably too many. Give them something in another area if you feel the need.
I am not ok with the fighter "contributing equal" by contributing way more in martial combat. If you want to make the fighter more powerful shore up an area he is deficient in, bring him up through another method that does not step on other classes and what you can do with them.
Yes, and I was pointing out that paladins already have an equivalent ability that lets them cover the same niche as well, just in a different mechanical manner.
Using magic is different, and the paladin does not cover the same niche. There is overlap certainly but there are things that are unique for fighters.
. . . and how many fighting styles does a fighter actually get to use compared to a Paladin?
8 vs 6 assuming you do not get any through a subclass or feat.
