D&D (2024) 4/26 Playtest: The Sorceror

[Nadan]

Slight modification.

At the start of each of your turns, you gain 1 temporary sorcerer point. You can only use this point on metamagic, and they do not stack.

It only be worth casting if the fight last 6 round or more. Because shorter than that, you might as well just convert the fifth slot it used to SP, and you can cast better spells at first turn, which is quite importent in tactics.
Edit: Consider most fight end within 3 round, it almost never worth to be cast.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I mean it should be exclusive and modified by dubclasses like Draconic Origin.

Like a Draconic Sorcerer can cast Chromatic Orb with no verbal, somatic, and material component as they spit it from their mouth.

Eh. They can spit it from their mouth either way, and I've never been too hung up on V,S,M components.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I suppose that would be fixed by giving that specific feedback. Although, if the shadow sorcerer isn't getting a damage boost, they might not have been intended for damage anyways.

Right, but this seems to miss the point. It doesn't matter if Shadow Sorcerers are or are not meant for damage dealing, the point is that the 5th level spell needs to give a value back to make it worth casting. And the only real value it can give is via damage. I don't see a way (as currently written) to get any value out of this and non-damaging spells the Sorcerer has access to.

So, if we were able to break even ONLY with the damage boosts (which we really struggled to do, including a 14th level feature) then we had an issue because a subclass not designed to have the damage boosts would not find this spell worth casting.

And even if they got a different 14th level feature, I'm really not hyped about a 9th level feature which only becomes worthwhile when you get your 14th level feature. That seems like bad design.

 

[mellored]

It only be worth casting if the fight last 6 round or more. Because shorter than that, you might as well just convert the fifth slot it used to SP, and you can cast better spells at first turn, which is quite importent in tactics.
Edit: Consider most fight end within 3 round, it almost never worth to be cast.

A big part of the spell is doing double metamagic. That allows you to do stuff you couldn't otherwise do.
Distant and Subtle for instance.

Getting a temporary SP reinforces that. And gaining 1 per round is a little better than 1d4.

 

[Asisreo]

Right, but this seems to miss the point. It doesn't matter if Shadow Sorcerers are or are not meant for damage dealing, the point is that the 5th level spell needs to give a value back to make it worth casting. And the only real value it can give is via damage. I don't see a way (as currently written) to get any value out of this and non-damaging spells the Sorcerer has access to.

So, if we were able to break even ONLY with the damage boosts (which we really struggled to do, including a 14th level feature) then we had an issue because a subclass not designed to have the damage boosts would not find this spell worth casting.

This is just speculation, but its possible that they can give other sorcerer subclasses an ability that can make sorcerer's incarnate useful.

Maybe, a shadow sorcerer can do things like debuff the enemy using spells without concentration once a day. Or whatever.

What I'm trying to say is that the design space for making sorcery incarnate good might be within the subclass rather than the base class.

 

[Nadan]

A big part of the spell is doing double metamagic. That allows you to do stuff you couldn't otherwise do.
Distant and Subtle for instance.

Getting a temporary SP reinforces that. And gaining 1 per round is a little better than 1d4.

Distant is only useful in some rare circumstance. Due to what you can cast when SI (ie. blast spells), not to mention all the SI's
sound and light effect, Subtle's use is reduce to dodge counterspell; Quicken is overratted and only being powerful when use by sorcadin, and Twin is dead. Unless you want to Careful+Transmute, there isn't many new and meaningful combo it can provide, due to Empower already can be use with other metamagic. And no, you can't make a triple, because SI said "up to two"

 

[Chaosmancer]

A big part of the spell is doing double metamagic. That allows you to do stuff you couldn't otherwise do.
Distant and Subtle for instance.

Getting a temporary SP reinforces that. And gaining 1 per round is a little better than 1d4.

Sure, you couldn't do it before... but why do you need to do it?

You can't use Subtle to not be obvious about casting magic, because you are currently glowing and crackling with magical energy. So the only use for Subtle in this case would be avoiding counterspell.... which distant trivially allows you to do, because by this point it increases your range by 270 ft. So you would need to be next to a counterspeller, but trying to hit someone 100 ft away? And you cast a 5th level spell that could be counterspelled first.

Like, double metamagic sounds great, but I can't find a practical use for most of it, because you can't use anything that has concentration.

 

[Chaosmancer]

This is just speculation, but its possible that they can give other sorcerer subclasses an ability that can make sorcerer's incarnate useful.

Maybe, a shadow sorcerer can do things like debuff the enemy using spells without concentration once a day. Or whatever.

What I'm trying to say is that the design space for making sorcery incarnate good might be within the subclass rather than the base class.

So you get a 9th level ability that is only useful when you get your 14th level subclass ability.

That is bad design. Either the subclass needs to change the spell at 9th level, or the spell needs to be useful on its own.

 

[mellored]

You can't use Subtle to not be obvious about casting magic, because you are currently glowing and crackling with magical energy.

Disguise self should cover any glowing.

Like, double metamagic sounds great, but I can't find a practical use for most of it,

Heightened + Distant + Blind comes to mind. Especially since blind is only 30', and scales by targets.

Heightened + Careful fireball also works.
Then twin + Careful the next turn.

you can't use anything that has concentration.

I'm not 100% sure you can't.
It would end SI, but you may get one double metamagic concentration spell off first.

 

[Nadan]

Disguise self should cover any glowing.

Heightened + Distant + Blind comes to mind. Especially since blind is only 30', and scales by targets.

Heightened + Careful fireball also works.
Then twin + Careful the next turn.

I'm not 100% sure you can't.
It would end SI, but you may get one double metamagic concentration spell off first.

Use Heightened on a blast spell is a waste unless use on Psychic Scream or Synaptic Static, and when there is a creature you particular want to make its short life extra miserable. And twin is dead, because 3 SP have more vaule than a third slot at this level (9+). And based on TCoE's clarification on concentration rule: "As soon as you start casting a spell or using a special ability that requires concentration, your concentration on another effect ends instantly." No, SI end when you start cast other concentration spell.

Edit: Based on wording of Disguise self I don't believe you can cover glowing, and you still grow a pair of spectral wings.