D&D 5E Curse of Strahd (and limitations on 1st level play)

[dave2008]

I'm delving into some theory crafting, just to get the kind of feel that I would want.

Great - let's do that!

I'm looking at average damage per round from my characters is 18 hp each. That means that a solo monster that should be able to "stand up" to them for 4 rounds needs 408 hp. I could probably divide that HP as an overall budget, but that's a start.

Your math is a bit odd here, 408/4 = 102 (4 rounds not standard, but let's run with it) per round. 102/18 = 5.666 PCs? I don't know where the mistake is so I will run the numbers with 5 & 6 PCs to cover my bases.

For 6 PCs @ 5th lvl that would be 6,600 XP for a "deadly" encounter. Really the floor for a challenge* in 5e. And the group can handle 21,000 XP per day or just over 3 of these.

For 5 PCs @ 5th lvl that would be 5,500 XP and 17,500 XP per day (also just over 3 encounters per day).

I feel it is important to point out. You (a group of PCs) are expected to be able to handle 3 "deadly" encounters per day without a TPK and really only a "chance" of having a PC dropping. So this is hardly a meat grinder. Anyway, let's continue with the numbers.

I have characters with 19 AC. For a basic monster it needs to hit close to 50% of the time. It should have between +7-9 to hit. Also with the characters having an average of 34 HP, we're looking at average damage of around 9 HP from a monster.

Seems about right, though that damage feels low. Let's look at some monsters that meet our XP threshold. A CR 10 monsters is worth 5,900 XP. That is a little low for a 6 PC group and almost spot on for a 5 PC group. So let's go with that. Here are a few CR 10 monsters:
Froghemoth
Stone Giant Dreamweaver
Young Red Dragon

5e thinks +3 to hit and 4 damage (against a 5th level party) is fine. It's not. It's not even a speedbump.

Not Sure where you are getting those numbers. The CR 10 monsters I picked:
Froghemoth: AC 14; HP 161; Attack +10; Damage 22 (+10)/19/19
Stone Giant: AC 18; HP 161; Attack +10; Damage 24/24
Young Red Dragon: AC 18; HP 178; Attack +10; Damage 13/13/20

So all of these hit your PCs AC a bit over 50% of the time and in theory could knock a PC down in one round if they focus. Where did you get your +3 to hit and 4 damage from? That doesn't seem to be RAW at all.

This is something I threw together 15 minutes on a break at work. Already better design than 5e has.

Except you seem to have used some completely wrong numbers when looking at 5e.

Anyway let's continue the theory crafting a bit. I don't know how you developed your PC numbers, so I will use them, and the monsters, straight up (no adjust damage by to hit %). I will assume all PCs win initiative.

Round 1:
PCS do 102 damage to the young red dragon (178 - 102 = 76 HP)
Dragon does 56 fire damage to 2 PCs (2 down)

Round 2: PCs kill the dragon.

The dragon took out 2 PCs, slightly more than is to be expected of a "deadly" encounter. Seems like it encounter builder and CR worked here.

To be clear, I realize this is incredibly simplified. Among other things hit % and saving throws were not considered. However, that would likely simply extend the length of the fight and not change the result much (maybe only one PC goes down as suggested by the encounter builder). What really makes the difference here is how the PCs and monster are run by the players and DM respectively. That can have a dramatic effect on the encounter.

*

Spoiler: deadly

Deadly. A deadly encounter could be lethal for one or more player characters. Survival often requires good tactics and quick thinking, and the party risks defeat.

 

[dave2008]

So you don't use the published adventures.

I do not.

I'm guessing you don't use the encounter building guidelines in the DMG.

Not any more. I have in the past and they worked well for one group and less so for the other. However, it was easy to then tune the guidelines for the group they didn't work for.

Do you create your own monsters?

I do, but I almost never use them with my group. I make monsters too tough. The official monsters are plenty challenging for my group

Do you throw like +10 level challenges against them?

Not normally. Most fights are trivial and story driven IMO. However, if I want a big epic battle I might use such an encounter. As I have stated many times before, per the XP per day guidelines in the DMG you need a battle about 3x deadly to really challenge them. And by challenge I mean a real chance of a TPK.

NPCs with class levels?

No, I almost never do this. I have made such monsters, but never used them as opponents.

Do you let your players use non-core stuff (like Xanathar's options)?

Yes, and 3PP stuff as well.

Do you use gritty rest variants?

For one group we use our own rest rules which are more draconian, but we like a more deadly game. The other group was standard rest rules.

I'm just trying to figure out what I'm missing. I have no idea how 5e is even considered "playable."

I truly don't know how to help. It appears, without truly knowing what is going on, that you keep doing the same things over and over again. It seems that people give you advice and you ignore it. You have been given good advice by many people over many threads, but it doesn't seem like you give it a try. I could be wrong, but that is how it appears.

 

[MGibster]

So you don't use the published adventures. I'm guessing you don't use the encounter building guidelines in the DMG.
Do you create your own monsters? Do you throw like +10 level challenges against them? NPCs with class levels?
Do you let your players use non-core stuff (like Xanathar's options)? Do you use gritty rest variants?
I'm just trying to figure out what I'm missing. I have no idea how 5e is even considered "playable."

I threw an ancient red dragon at my party way back in 2015. Going by the CR, the PCs were woefully under level, but they mopped the floor with the dragon.

 

[dave2008]

I threw an ancient red dragon at my party way back in 2015. Going by the CR, the PCs were woefully under level, but they mopped the floor with the dragon.

What level and how many PCs. By the XP per day guideline a CR 24 monster should be a good fight for:
(4) 15th level PCs or (5) 13th level PCs.

However, the real measure is how you play the dragon and how the PCs are played. I've had an ancient dragon TPK a group of (4) 20th lvl PC and I have also had a group of (5) 15th lvl PCs pretty soundly defeat an ancient dragon. Tactics and play have a bigger impact than XP and CR IME.

 

[Retreater]

I truly don't know how to help. It appears, without truly knowing what is going on, that you keep doing the same things over and over again. It seems that people give you advice and you ignore it. You have been given good advice by many people over many threads, but it doesn't seem like you give it a try. I could be wrong, but that is how it appears.

It probably seems that way unless someone reads all of my posts in chronological order.
The typical chain of events usually goes this way...

1) 1st level starts too hard. I rush the party to 2nd level. It's okay for one level.
2) By around 3rd level, it gets too difficult to challenge the group with encounters that aren't way overpowered. (I want to challenge them, not kill them). I come to this community for advice. [We'll call this the Subclass adjustment period.]
3) It gets good for a few sessions, maybe from levels 3-5 with those adjustments.
4) The party gets too powerful again. [We'll call this the Fireball adjustment period.]
5) Trying to make adjustments from Step 3, I overdo it, and I get a TPK.

So yes, I do read and try to learn, but I keep making mistakes. This is frustrating because I obviously care a lot about the game and want to be a great DM.

 

[Retreater]

So all of these hit your PCs AC a bit over 50% of the time and in theory could knock a PC down in one round if they focus. Where did you get your +3 to hit and 4 damage from? That doesn't seem to be RAW at all.

Those were the twig blights that were thrown at the 5th level party at the Winery in Curse of Strahd. Going from the book, the Winery was intended for a 5th level party. [Probably could've been handled by a 2nd level one, IMO.]

Young Red Dragon: AC 18; HP 178; Attack +10; Damage 13/13/20

The thing that scares me about throwing a young red dragon (or other CR 10s) against the party, is that they have special attacks that can wipe out many characters. The cone attack could likely hit over half the party. 56 damage is enough to drop any of them. If the dragon gets a second breath weapon, the party is literally toast.
It's not necessarily the AC or HP or attack bonus that bothers me, it's the special attacks.
I can't comment on the Froghemoth or Stone Giant you shared because I don't have access on D&D Beyond, but I'm guessing that they are going to be similar - the baseline monster is okay for the group, but the special powers make them more appropriate for high level groups.
And if I just "take away the special attacks" - then I have a boring, static fight with a slog through a bag of hit points.

Fortunately, we're taking next Sunday off for Mother's Day, so I have a little more time than usual to try to get this figured out.

 

[dave2008]

I'm just trying to figure out what I'm missing. I have no idea how 5e is even considered "playable."

@Retreater, I'm going to summon @Quickleaf here because I believe they had a really simple rule-of-thumb for encounter building that I think could help you. Unfortunately I couldn't find the post and I don't remember it exactly.

However it had to do with comparing the monster damage to PCs hit points. Basically you just need to know if a monster can one shot a PC. Hopefully Quickleaf knows what I am talking about and can give you a better answer!

 

[dave2008]

It probably seems that way unless someone reads all of my posts in chronological order.
The typical chain of events usually goes this way...

1) 1st level starts too hard. I rush the party to 2nd level. It's okay for one level.
2) By around 3rd level, it gets too difficult to challenge the group with encounters that aren't way overpowered. (I want to challenge them, not kill them). I come to this community for advice. [We'll call this the Subclass adjustment period.]
3) It gets good for a few sessions, maybe from levels 3-5 with those adjustments.
4) The party gets too powerful again. [We'll call this the Fireball adjustment period.]
5) Trying to make adjustments from Step 3, I overdo it, and I get a TPK.

So yes, I do read and try to learn, but I keep making mistakes. This is frustrating because I obviously care a lot about the game and want to be a great DM.

I guess I'm not sure what you are looking for, but it seems like you tend to over compensate. I would suggest that most fights should be easy (aka "deadly" or less) and only a few fights should be real challenges. And a real challenge should threaten a TPK. However, it seems like you want every encounter to be challenge that doesn't threaten a TPK? Is that accurate? That is hard to do, because it is not a challenge if there isn't a risk of defeat - and defeat is a TPK to a lot of players (as they don't often think of retreat). So if your are continually throwing challenges at them, they will eventually get ruined.

If the above seems like the meat of the issue, let me know and maybe we can get to some more nuanced solutions.

 

[Retreater]

I guess I'm not sure what you are looking for, but it seems like you tend to over compensate. I would suggest that most fights should be easy (aka "deadly" or less) and only a few fights should be real challenges. And a real challenge should threaten a TPK. However, it seems like you want every encounter to be challenge that doesn't threaten a TPK? Is that accurate? That is hard to do, because it is not a challenge if there isn't a risk of defeat - and defeat is a TPK to a lot of players (as they don't often think of retreat). So if your are continually throwing challenges at them, they will eventually get ruined.

If the above seems like the meat of the issue, let me know and maybe we can get to some more nuanced solutions.

There's some level of nuance.

• For example, the cleric did nothing but cast sacred flame for the whole day. There were no challenges worth spending a spell slot on. She didn't even need to heal anybody because no one took damage or was in any danger for the entire adventuring day.
• The players were getting bored, distracted. It was frustrating to me when they'd just look at each other and make silly noises. There was no excitement for the game, because there were no stakes.
• The rogue gets ahead of the party to sneak attack. There's no reason not to do so, because none of the enemies can really threaten her. Thus there's no interesting decision to be made regarding "do I put myself in danger to deal more damage?" No, I just get to deal more damage.
• The game feels like a speed run through a video game on God Mode. I don't feel like the best gaming memories are made in that environment.
• Not every fight, but SOME fights should be challenging.

 

[MGibster]

What level and how many PCs. By the XP per day guideline a CR 24 monster should be a good fight for:
(4) 15th level PCs or (5) 13th level PCs.

It's been nine years. I don't even remember what classes everyone was playing.