D&D General Fighting Law and Order

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I do understand why people like it.

A game like D&D is 95% combat rules and 5% adventure rules. A DM describes an area, some rocky hills and a cave, then asks the player what they do. This brings a huge crushing weight right down on the player. The player has t make a choice and a decision, and that is hard for a lot of people. Worse they get over loaded with the idea that they can try to do anything in the game. It's a great idea, but it's also too much for most people. Put someone on the spot and tell them they can try to do anything and most people will freeze as they think about the endless things that could be done.
Or, and this is often a sign of the type of player well worth keeping, they'll just do something completely random that may or may not have anything to do with what you just narrated. :)

Your example is perfect. Long ago I-as-DM described an area, some rocky hills and a cave, and asked the (mostly new) players what they do.

One of the responses, and I think I'm quoting this right, was "I close my eyes and walk into the mountain." On asking for clarification (after getting over some surprise) it quickly became clear she didn't mean she was going into the cave; she was disbelieving the mountain's existence, closing her eyes, and just walking into the cliff.

How many players would even think of that?
And in D&D the rules offer no help. Unless your in combat, or doing something like climbing a tree, there are no D&D rules. A player feels lost and lonely; like they are a tiny speck on an island with no name in a vast endless ocean. Most players freeze, many get confused, and more then a couple just get angry....but they are still at a loss of what to do.
I've rarely seen that; and a player who gets anrgy about it probably isn't worth keeping anyway.

Personally, being told I could try anything in-character was one of the main hooks that drew me into playing in the first place.
 

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While modeling a fantasy world is a great goal, it often devolves into the players waiting while the GM goes into description porn mode--and even more often doesn't actually change anything about how the players interact with the world.
Its still what I enjoy, and to me its worth the risk. If I had to just run published adventures. I probably wouldn't bother DMing at all.
 


Well, in fairness Frodo did have that +10 Trouble Attractor around his finger...

Also in fairness, one could in this case say the success and failure was at a party level rather than that of an individual character; and who got attacked was thus somewhat random. (in the movies I seem to recall a few others got attacked as well)

But my understanding (which may not be correct) was that a hard move by the DM is in response to a failed move by a character. Now that could be because "follow the fiction" means that Frodo was a babe monster magnet, but that's what I was trying to get clarification on. Frodo didn't fail anything as far as I can tell but was still the target of the attack. In addition, watching a clip of the movie again, the watcher in the water grabs Frodo first and only attacks the others after they try to stop it.

I'll just reiterate though. I prefer D&D in which all the creatures/NPCs have their own actions and the DM can have them do what makes sense. So if the tentacle monster had multiple attacks then as a DM it will attack whoever makes the most sense in the scene.
 

Except that's not what "the fiction" means--at all. You CANNOT add "as the fiction requires." That would be an absolute abrogation of the rules of Dungeon World. Utterly unacceptable.
If you say it, it's true....that is in the rules, right?
You, as GM, can only make a move if it is already obvious that that is what should happen (with one minor exception: "think offscreen too," meaning stuff that will become obvious sooner rather than later, but ONLY in response to a player failing a move--meaning, they still know something went wrong, they just don't know what it was yet.) E.g., the ogre charges at a player, they Defy Danger to avoid getting hit, and they roll 6 or less (a "failed" or "missed" roll.) The fiction just means...the stuff currently going on. In this case, a failure to avoid being attacked. What happens if you fail to avoid being attacked? You get hurt. THAT is what "when the fiction requires it" means. You cannot invoke it as some divine plan that the players must meekly accept. You can only say, "You have to take damage, because you just got hit by an ogre" or the like.
Right, the GM can make a move that is obvious to the GM, By the Fiction.


This is explained in two pithy phrases:
  1. "You have to do it, to do it." This means, you--whether player or GM--have to actually do the actions, within the fictional space, in order for you to make any moves. A player cannot just declare, "I Discern Realities." That would, in fact, be completely against the spirit of the game. Instead, the player must say something like, "I check the bookcase for anything weird--first, just looking to see if it has any signs of magical effects, but if the coast seems clear, checking for secret compartments, concealed latches, anywhere something might be hidden." That description is doing the actions of Discern Realities ("When you closely study a situation or person") and thus you may use it.
I get that in such a game the player can alter the game reality at will.

Games like D&D are much harder as the player often has to have the character do and take actions vs a static fictional reality. The scroll is behind the seventh bookcase, so the character must look there to find it.

The other game is "my character alters game reality so the scroll is where ever I look for it and find it".


  1. "If you do it, you do it." This means you--whether player or GM--must use a move when it is triggered. If you are "act[ing] despite an imminent threat or suffer[ing] a calamity," you must say how you deal with it and roll. (This is the move Defy Danger.) Once something has been established in the fiction, meaning, once the table knows a certain situation is true because it's literally happening in front of them in the imagined world, then any moves that are triggered by that situation must be used. Of course, you could simply decide not to act, that's also valid, but then the move wouldn't trigger (because you wouldn't be "act[ing] despite an imminent threat.")
Deft Danger is like a reality altering saving throw?

These two concepts together mean if, and only if, the fiction requires a move to occur, then that move will occur. But "the fiction" just means...the stuff happening around the characters. It emphatically does NOT mean some mystical unknown plan the GM can impose on the players. It emphatically does NOT mean the GM can say, "The fiction requires it" and the players must meekly accept. Exactly the opposite! If the GM cannot show that the CURRENT state of the world--the right now stuff in front of the players--requires a particular result, then the fiction DOES NOT support them.
I get that a big part of such a game is all the times you need to stop playing the game and explain everything to the players at length so that they understand the illusion of the fiction. The GM can take the players through a half hour of fictional finances until the players understand and accepthe price of a item
You can't use the fiction as an excuse--it's right there for everyone to see! Even if the move you make is "offscreen," the reason you've made the move--a player failing a move--happens right out in public for everyone to see. You can't dismiss player criticism with the fiction.
Players is the illusion though, so there is that.

An active game with four players will have four characters each making moves every minute of game time. So in just a couple minutes, the characters can set off like 4-16 triggers. The players will have a hard enough time keeping track of just their personal actions, much less all the actions of all the players.


That sounds absolutely horrible, and yeah, I can't blame a player for flipping out about you telling them that a potion of healing costs 1000 gp!
Why? It's bot game to say "Beep, every single item is available world wide for the exact price listed in the rules. Beep. That's like playing a video game.

Which seems a bit odd, given that the bolded is also the exact function of a script in a play or movie.
Well, to be fair to the game it is a Improv Script. The rules tell you what to do, but make it vague enough you can improv. Like if you get attacked you can take the Dodge action, but your free to write out the game reality as long as you are "dodging".

The problem is how do you keep from frustrating the player to the point that just stop playing.
I use the classic "You have to tear it all down to build it back up" method.
 

In response to someone's concerns about not having the freedom to say things in a manner unprescribed, you said:
This is

literally nothing

like what playing Dungeon World is like. You are very specifically and explicitly instructed NOT to do this. You are very specifically and explicitly instructed to only trigger moves when the fiction requires it, and never for any other reason.
But then a page or two later we got this:

AbdulAlhazred said:
People, me included, have often said something like "Dungeon World tells everyone when they need to say something." Its more than that, it is a VERY concise set of directions for WHEN to talk, WHAT to say, and HOW to say it.
Any chance you two can get your story straight here? :)
 

But my understanding (which may not be correct) was that a hard move by the DM is in response to a failed move by a character. Now that could be because "follow the fiction" means that Frodo was a babe monster magnet, but that's what I was trying to get clarification on.
Safe to say that by then the fiction had already fairly well established Frodo was everyone's target. :)
 



I'm asking a question and trying to get clarification of how it works. How is trying to better understand how a different system works digging in my heels?

Here is the bit I quoted. There's no question in there.
But the character that failed (Gandalf) was not attacked. Frodo succeeded and was attacked. That's the disconnect that DW doesn't seem to handle as far as I can tell.

DW and similar games have potentially multiple ways to handle it. It really depends. But any time we try to take something in fiction and then map it to play, there's a possibility it doesn't work 100%. It's rarely a perfect translation.

In DW, Gandalf failed their check but Frodo succeeds. But it's not Gandalf that gets attacked, it's Frodo. That seems to be contrary to my understanding of the way the game works.

I'll pose one way. Gandalf's player said "I want to see if I've learned anything about these doors in all my studies". In DW, this would be Spout Lore move. But, Frodo's player says "Hey, can I help him with that? Maybe I know something or can figure something out that helps?" and this would be the Aid action, which depending on the roll, would grant a bonus to Gandalf's roll, but may also put Frodo at risk on a partial hit or a failure.

So Frodo rolls an 8 to Aid, and that gives Gandalf a +1 to his roll. He winds up rolling a 6, but with the +1 that gets him to 7, which means he succeeds, but the GM can make a move.

Given the circumstances... the disturbance in the waters already having been established, and needing to make a move on Gandalf's roll, which also has Frodo at risk, the GM decides to have the thing in the water collapse the doors behind them, leaving them no choice but to press on into Moria (Reveal An Unwelcome Truth) and also to have the creature catch poor old Bill (Use Up Their Resources).

Again, that's one way to deal with it. There are others that we could apply, other ways to interpret it.

In sequence: no, no, and only so far as I have to (init. is rerolled each round and things can happen simultaneoulsly).

Those were some examples from 5e. Though, like initiative, there are plenty of other examples from all other editions of play. Giving D&D a pass for its game constructs, but labeling those of other games as "artificial" or "forced" or what have you seems a bit unfair.

Yeah, hit points are their own special type of nuisance: a poor idea but still arguably better than all the other worse ideas.

What other ideas do you have in mind? I know of a few games that I've played that have a better system than Hit Points.
 

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