TSR Appendix N Discussion

[Parmandur]

Well, on that the use was certainly more diffuse, and Gygax didn't originate the term. The idea for "dungeons" came specifically from Arneson. It was his idea to have the dungeons underneath the castle as a place for the players (using individual characters) to adventure, and then he showed it off to Gygax. Blackmoor, Greyhawk, et al.

And so I find that double unlikely- first, the idea of "dungeons" beneath a castle had widespread usage prior to Tolkien. Second, Gygax didn't "borrow" it from Tolkien. He used it because of Arneson. It would be an example, unless we had more, of people reading Tolkien back into D&D.

I mean, I have little doubt that Arneson read Tolkiem, for that matter. The specific way thar "dungeon" gets used I'm the Hobvit happens to be exactly the way it has been genericized by D&D...but that's not what the word has meant in Engliah prior, Tolkien was playing his etymological games and looking for alliteration in a poem. I have zer o doubt that's the source of the term for D&D. There were a bunch of other Old School D&Disms in the Hobbit that I noted on my recent listen, very specific terms, bit that's the one that stuck in my head.

 

[Parmandur]

It strikes me that if both Gygax and Arneson read the Hobvit as kids (and I do not doubt that they did), then it's highly probable that a lot of specific Tolkienisms wormed their way onto their subconscious as "generic fantasy."

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I mean, I have little doubt that Arneson read Tolkiem, for that matter. The specific way thar "dungeon" gets used I'm the Hobvit happens to be exactly the way it has been genericized by D&D...but that's not what the word has meant in Engliah prior, Tolkien was playing his etymological games and looking for alliteration in a poem. I have zer o doubt that's the source of the term for D&D. There were a bunch of other Old School D&Disms in the Hobbit that I noted on my recent listen, very specific terms, bit that's the one that stuck in my head.

...again, that might be a consequence of use in play. But the use of the word "dungeon" to mean the area underneath a castle (which is exactly how it is used in early D&D!) has nothing to do with Tolkien. That has a long long long usage.

 

[Willie the Duck]

I mean, I read Brooks autobiography where he is quite honest about what he did: Sword of Shanara was an exercise in taking a book apart and putting it back together in his own words. It's not really an arguable point, that's what he was doing, and he did it well?

If it is possible, can you find a quote? Seems like that would go a long way towards putting this to rest.

FWIW, IMO one can make a recreation of someone else's work, make an allusion, do an homage, or create a spiritual successor. All will be identifiably similar to the thing they are in reference to, and there isn't always a direct correlation between which category the new products is and how similar it is to the references work (one given homage may be more similar than a given recreation, the other less similar).

 

[Parmandur]

...again, that might be a consequence of use in play. But the use of the word "dungeon" to mean the area underneath a castle (which is exactly how it is used in early D&D!) has nothing to do with Tolkien. That has a long long long usage.

Yea, but most Dungeons in D&D ain't castle Donjons or cells. Most resemble the ruins of Lonely Mointain described as "dungeons deep and caverns old" where adventurers are hired to go and "find our long forgotten gold."

 

[Deset Gled]

Yea, but most Dungeons in D&D ain't castle Donjons or cells. Most resemble the ruins of Lonely Mointain described as "dungeons deep and caverns old" where adventurers are hired to go and "find our long forgotten gold."

I'd like to throw out for consideration that there's more than a small amount of Lovecraft in the D&D dungeons, as well. "Rats in the Walls" and "At the Mountains of Madness" both spring to mind as immediate examples, but I'm sure there would be others.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Yea, but most Dungeons in D&D ain't castle Donjons or cells. Most resemble the ruins of Lonely Mointain described as "dungeons deep and caverns old" where adventurers are hired to go and "find our long forgotten gold."

Again, though, that's not how the game started. It started as a wargame, and there were castles. One of the castles (the one in Arneson's area) was Blackmoor. During the game, an evil wizard and his balrog stole something and then went into the dungeon below the castle to hide.

The adventurers followed the wizard into the castle's dungeon to retrieve it. And that's how it started.

This is why we need to be careful attributing things to Tolkien. Sure, it can seem to make sense. But that's not why we have dungeons. We have dungeons because there was a castle, and someone went to hide in the castle basement.

 

[Parmandur]

I'd like to throw out for consideration that there's more than a small amount of Lovecraft in the D&D dungeons, as well. "Rats in the Walls" and "At the Mountains of Madness" both spring to mind as immediate examples, but I'm sure there would be others.

Sure, I think all the Appendix N stuff really is a serious part of the stew that made D&D.

 

[Parmandur]

Again, though, that's not how the game started. It started as a wargame, and there were castles. One of the castles (the one in Arneson's area) was Blackmoor. During the game, an evil wizard and his balrog stole something and then went into the dungeon below the castle to hide.

The adventurers followed the wizard into the castle's dungeon to retrieve it. And that's how it started.

This is why we need to be careful attributing things to Tolkien. Sure, it can seem to make sense. But that's not why we have dungeons. We have dungeons because there was a castle, and someone went to hide in the castle basement.

His Balrog stole something, you say...?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

His Balrog stole something, you say...?

Yeah, he was using the Fantasy Supplement to the Chainmail rules. Remember? Which had Balrogs. Because it was ripped off of a Tolkien-based wargame!

Again, credit Tolkien for the things he should get credit for. Don't credit Tolkien for naming the dungeon of a castle a dungeon.