D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Chaosmancer]

I don't think that kind of worldbuilding critique is a unique weakness of moving supernatural effects to skills. There's plenty of stuff in the magic system, even if we don't adjust how it functions, that threatens the fabric of a campaign setting if we start thinking through prices and "what if there was actually a couple of court wizards?"

Don't get me wrong, I'd love some more time spent on the economic and social implications of the abilities in the PHB and yeah, a society with mass teleportation regularly available to the upper and middle classes is a very interesting conceit I'd be happy to build on. I don't know if that's a particularly relevant argument for whether that's something non-magical characters should be able to interact with.

Unless, and it's possible I'm missing some context here, this thread is long, you're proposing that this kind of utility needs to be separated from the skill system, which needs to model universal mundane capability, and moved instead into class features?

I'm not pointing it out as a weakness, more as a... I'm not sure how to explain it.

The prompt from the OP was how to remove magical dependency for high level martials. This idea works... but it works equally well for low-level martials. It is a world-building solution that simply states "this high level magic instead becomes mundane and common" In the same way, you could remove the need for high level mages to create planar portals by having massive, well-known planar crystals that allow anyone who touches them to transport themselves to another plane of existence. With this a high level martial doesn't need a spellcaster to travel the planes.... but neither does the level 1 potato farmer.

I'm not saying they are bad solutions per se, just that they are less "solutions for powerful martial warriors" and more "solutions for world-building high level magic into every day existence". It becomes a world-building exercise, not an exercise of the classes.

 

[TheSword]

If they are just a skill check, why not have people able to take 20 and activate them? And if it ends up being something that any sufficiently intelligent scholar with time can do... then why doesn't every noble have them set up?

Again, I turn to the ships. Anyone can go to a skilled shipwright, spend 30,000 gp and have a galley built. And many rich and powerful people in the settings have their own personal ships, while many governments have their own navies, costing even more. Time wise, it is not unreasonable to say that building a massive galley take a year.

Now assume we took teleportation circle and just 1 for 1 translated it. 50 gp per day for a year is 18,200 gp, almost half the price of the galley. And so, logically, this would make the teleportation circles as common as large merchant vessels. Much more common, and useable by anyone. Not just a specialized tool of adventuring parties and the hyper elite.

It’s worth saying in many settings portals are that common and are often open all the time, or have a required key (password, item or particular circumstances). Solving the mystery of how to get a portal working is much more interesting that a wizard just casting teleport.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Take some runes and put them in the right order ("aka dial the gate") and you can do long range travel. But not just "anyone" can do it as it takes skill and intelligence.

But... not really. The only reason it takes skill and intelligence is to interpret the symbols you aren't familiar with. I'm not super into Stargate Lore, but the people who built the gates new the language. It is the equivalent, in many ways, of a phone number. Sure, take a cell phone written in english, and give it to an ancient sumerian who can't recognize the symbols, letters or numbers and it will take a great deal of skill and intelligence to figure out... but after a generation or two, it isn't skill or intelligence, it is rote practice. All you need to know is the order of the runes, and boom, you get the result you want. Anyone CAN do it, if they know the code.

 

[Chaosmancer]

It’s worth saying in many settings portals are that common and are often open all the time, or have a required key (password, item or particular circumstances). Solving the mystery of how to get a portal working is much more interesting that a wizard just casting teleport.

Yes and?

The point isn't that it can't work or isn't interesting. The point is that it moves from a discussion about high level classes to a discussion of world-building expectations. The idea that the only way to remove a high level martials dependency on magic... is to give the magic easy access to everyone.

Which isn't a bad answer, but it is a very different perspective than was originally laid out, and indicative of the deeper problem.

 

[Minigiant]

At DC 30 how is a fighter with a +2 Intelligence supposed to accomplish them? Now we are back at the beginning, and no magical dependency has been removed. It has now simply shifted from wizards and sorcerers to bards and rogues.

Well fighters in my games get Expertise in one skill or tool.

Let me explain my Planar cracks and tears houserule.
There are things called planar cracks and planar tears. It's DC 30 Wisdom or Intelligence check to see a planar crack or planar tear if you are trained with the appropriate skill.
Once you see the crack or tear, you can attack it. The AC starts at 20. The crack or tear grows in size and lowers in AC as it is deal damage.
After an amount of time, reality attempts to heal itself and the tear or crack blurs and shrinks until it disappears.

Someone spots the crack. The fighter breaks a hole into reality with their axe.

 

[bloodtide]

Anyone CAN do it, if they know the code.

Well....there are plenty of examples that show this to not be true.

The vast majority of people carry a super computer with access to the bulk of all human knowledge. And yet many people don't know many things they could just look up.

Sure "anyone" can dial a phone number they are given..... but how many people can discover a phone number they don't know? If you say "get me the phome number of a pizza place in Boston...they might be able to do and online search. How about just pick a random person on a passing bus and say "call their phone". It's not impossible to do. Takes a bit of skill and intelligence, though....

How about do simple math like triangulate a location? Or even more to the "Stargate" six point location. Not to dive too deep into just the Stargate example, but even if they were shown how to do it.....not "everyone" could figure out a new six point location.

Even in 2023, some things just take intelligence and skill. Put someone in a random spot on Earth.....can they tell where they are by looking at the stars? Some people can. And some people can even make some measurements by hand, and even plot a course. To navigate by the stars, you need intelligence and skill.


The point is, intelligence and skill are STILL a bar that not 'everyone' can just auto pass.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Well fighters in my games get Expertise in one skill or tool.

Houserules like that are sort of important before you just start throwing out DCs beyond the game's expectations.

Let me explain my Planar cracks and tears houserule.
There are things called planar cracks and planar tears. It's DC 30 Wisdom or Intelligence check to see a planar crack or planar tear if you are trained with the appropriate skill.
Once you see the crack or tear, you can attack it. The AC starts at 20. The crack or tear grows in size and lowers in AC as it is deal damage.
After an amount of time, reality attempts to heal itself and the tear or crack blurs and shrinks until it disappears.

Someone spots the crack. The fighter breaks a hole into reality with their axe.

Okay... so what does this have to do with a fighter? Let me explain.

It is a DC 30 wisdom or intelligence check. While fighter's can get expertise in a single skill or tool, it is only a single one, so the rogue is far more likely to have investigation or perception to see this. Fighter's can, but it isn't limited. But okay, finding this can only be done with an insanely high skill check.

Then you can attack it... and that can be done by anyone. Firebolt away wizard. So, sure, you have made planar travel rely on a skill check, then given fighters a chance to make that skill check if they choose the correct expertise... but rogues and bards (and in one dnd Rangers and artificers) get more expertise slots, and if you have a feat that can give expertise then anyone can get it. You've removed the chance of low-level characters doing this, simply because the DC is too high, but unless you have even more house rules for this, you've simply shifted things to "a fighter who has invested deeply in intelligence or wisdom" which is... not common for fighters to do. Even at high level, with expertise, and only a +3 wisdom, they are looking at needing a 15 or higher on the die.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Well....there are plenty of examples that show this to not be true.

The vast majority of people carry a super computer with access to the bulk of all human knowledge. And yet many people don't know many things they could just look up.

Sure "anyone" can dial a phone number they are given..... but how many people can discover a phone number they don't know? If you say "get me the phome number of a pizza place in Boston...they might be able to do and online search. How about just pick a random person on a passing bus and say "call their phone". It's not impossible to do. Takes a bit of skill and intelligence, though....

Right, this is literally my point.

Here's a question, if I give you a license plate number do you know who the care belongs to? No. But if I give a license plate number to the police, can they find who the care belongs to? Yes, trivially, without much need of skill or intelligence. They just look it up, because they have the record.

Now, you have a nobleman who purchases a teleportation circle between Waterdeep and Neverwinter... well.... they know the code. They have to, because the person making it set the code. And then they are going to designate someone to run the circle for them. Does that person need to be highly skilled and intelligent? No. What they need is a book that contains all the codes for the major trade hubs.

And so, you end up not with a series of mysterious gates that only a master could possibly decipher and use... but with a phone operator from the 1950's who sits there and plugs in your connection for you.

How about do simple math like triangulate a location? Or even more to the "Stargate" six point location. Not to dive too deep into just the Stargate example, but even if they were shown how to do it.....not "everyone" could figure out a new six point location.

A new one, sure, but you don't need a new. You need the one that everyone uses to go from point A to point B.

Even in 2023, some things just take intelligence and skill. Put someone in a random spot on Earth.....can they tell where they are by looking at the stars? Some people can. And some people can even make some measurements by hand, and even plot a course. To navigate by the stars, you need intelligence and skill.

But you aren't just dropped in some random place. Why would someone even attempt to use a teleportation circle and randomize the result?

The problem is you are thinking of these like ancient structures left behind by a long-forgotten civilization, without any understanding of how they work or what they do. You are like the ancient sumerian and the phone, just randomly activating features and trying to extrapolate what they do. But that isn't what would happen, because people are building these contemporaneously. And therefore how they work is know, and all you need is a piece of paper that says

Waterdeep -> 965-748-5547

And inputting that code doesn't take any skill or intelligence, just the ability to recognize the symbols.

 

[BRayne]

Funny how those Critical Role stats from above ignore the Exandria campaign where the top damage dealer is Nydas at 75000 damage as a draconic bloodline sorcerer.

To be fair though the rogue clocks in at number two and unsurprisingly the paladin at number three.

I think you're misreading the average damages (to the third decimal point) as total. Nydas did 319 damage over 4 episodes, for an average of 79.75 damage per episode.

 

[Minigiant]

Houserules like that are sort of important before you just start throwing out DCs beyond the game's expectations.



Okay... so what does this have to do with a fighter? Let me explain.

It is a DC 30 wisdom or intelligence check. While fighter's can get expertise in a single skill or tool, it is only a single one, so the rogue is far more likely to have investigation or perception to see this. Fighter's can, but it isn't limited. But okay, finding this can only be done with an insanely high skill check.

Then you can attack it... and that can be done by anyone. Firebolt away wizard. So, sure, you have made planar travel rely on a skill check, then given fighters a chance to make that skill check if they choose the correct expertise... but rogues and bards (and in one dnd Rangers and artificers) get more expertise slots, and if you have a feat that can give expertise then anyone can get it. You've removed the chance of low-level characters doing this, simply because the DC is too high, but unless you have even more house rules for this, you've simply shifted things to "a fighter who has invested deeply in intelligence or wisdom" which is... not common for fighters to do. Even at high level, with expertise, and only a +3 wisdom, they are looking at needing a 15 or higher on the die.

Remember when I said it was complex

1. Planar tears and cracks are immune to all damage but bludgeoning, force, slashing, piercing. and thunder.
2. If attacks or check fail, Reality increases the planar crack or tear's AC by 2 and DC by 1 and repairs by 1d6 on its turn.
3. How fast a crack or tear opens is based on damage.
4. So the path is to have someone spot the tear then bust it open immediately.
5. You can cast spells to help spot tears and cracks but then you are noticing them
   1. Which heals cracks
6. The DC is lower if an extraplanar being is near, a conjuration spell was recently used in the area, or if a magic weapon has be swung around

This means if a fighter was fighting a demon and the demon teleport away, a fighter on the next turn can Search for an easily spotted tear to the Abyss and Action surge attack it thrice with his axe to open a portal there right behind the fiend.

Here's Johnny!