D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Krachek]

A possibly unpopular opinion: Martials SHOULD be magical at the highest levels. They should be able to cut through steel. They should be able to move at blazing speeds. They should be able to leap great distances. They should be able to stand their ground against punches from giants and tail slaps from dragons. They should be able to run into a large group of minions and strike them all down like chained lightning or a big explosion.

All it needs it’s a
Vorpal sword,
a pair of boots of flying or at least boots of striding and springing,
a dwarven plate,
That will do pretty much the job.

 

[Emberashh]

I can tell you (not really) from real life experience that magical energy is needed to exceed human limits of martial prowess. The last time space aliens invaded my home town, I had to use a lot of it to deal with their giant monsters.

Ah, but why are we assuming fantasy humans and real life humans are the same thing?

Even LOTR with its very low-magic presentation didn't actually have just regular, actual factual humans.

Now, we can split hairs over whether or not whatever distinguishes fantasy humans from the real ones is magic or not, but the point is that relative to their own reality, they are not, generally, magical in nature, even if their capabilities well exceed that of humans in an entirely separate reality.

I often wonder if people would have an easier time accepting something like that if we just didn't call them humans.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Im pointing more at the over-suggested Maneuver system.

So, I'm not totally sure what this means, but I assume we're talking about battlemaster maneuvers?

And if so, what is it, to you, that makes then too spell-like.

But beyond that, I led the post you replied to with a question. Are Action Surge or Second Wind problematic from a "mechanical distinctiveness" perspective?

If so, why?
If not, then it'd seem like we already have a dirt simple mechanical template to work from. We just need to use it for more interesting/impactful abilities.

 

[CreamCloud0]

The thing that has to be asked about this is if something is a valuable part of a characters options if its not something unique to them.

After all, does anyone here think spells aren't a valuable part of a Caster class despite the variety of ways all non-casters have to access and use spells, sometimes just as good as the Casters do? Like IA, there isn't a single class in the entire game, even just in the PHB, that can't access spellcasting.

The answer should obviously be no, yet because IA isn't a uniquely Martial thing we seem eager to discount it as a part of their toolbox.

there is a difference between a resource that everyone has access to, even if they have different levels of natural access or have to dedicate resources or build to attain it and something that every single character automatically has access to because it's baked into everyone's fundamental player options. if everyone gets access then it's not A Special Fighter Thing, fighters also get to fail two death saves before the last one kills them for good, that doesn't make death saves a fighter boon that uniquely counts towards their benefits, no, it's just part of the baseline that EVERYONE is starting from.

 

[Emberashh]

And if so, what is it, to you, that makes then too spell-like.

The only distinction between them and spells is the superiority dice, and even that distinction is slim depending on the spell. As noted, ive given more than a few examples of how such things can be made distinctive mechanically.

If not, then it'd seem like we already have a dirt simple mechanical template to work from. We just need to use it for more interesting/impactful abilities.

I never said otherwise. Insofar as abilities go, IMO, they only become an issue in this respect when they literally are spells, like when Hunter had Volley/Whirlwind Attack replaced with Conjure Barrage.

 

[Gammadoodler]

A possibly unpopular opinion: Martials SHOULD be magical at the highest levels. They should be able to cut through steel. They should be able to move at blazing speeds. They should be able to leap great distances. They should be able to stand their ground against punches from giants and tail slaps from dragons. They should be able to run into a large group of minions and strike them all down like chained lightning or a big explosion.

Trade 'magical' for 'fantastic' and I'm on board.

It's a bit of hair-splitting but I feel like it's a good distinction to make.

'Magical', to me, suggests a supernatural source of power that they're drawing on (which I'm not opposed to as an option, but which I'd dislike as a necessity)

While 'Fantastic' is, to me, descriptive of the feats they can achieve, whatever the power source. In which case, let's go nuts.. it's a fantasy rpg after all.

 

[Gammadoodler]

The only distinction between them and spells is the superiority dice, and even that distinction is slim depending on the spell. As noted, ive given more than a few examples of how such things can be made distinctive mechanically.



I never said otherwise. Insofar as abilities go, IMO, they only become an issue in this respect when they literally are spells, like when Hunter had Volley/Whirlwind Attack replaced with Conjure Barrage.

You have not described what your criteria is for mechanical similarity to or distinctiveness from spells.

Mechanically, what, to you, triggers an "oh that's basically a spell" response?

 

[Emberashh]

there is a difference between a resource that everyone has access to, even if they have different levels of natural access or have to dedicate resources or build to attain it and something that every single character automatically has access to because it's baked into everyone's fundamental player options. if everyone gets access then it's not A Special Fighter Thing, fighters also get to fail two death saves before the last one kills them for good, that doesn't make death saves a fighter boon that uniquely counts towards their benefits, no, it's just part of the baseline that EVERYONE is starting from.

And I don't see that distinction as, well, all that distinct.

But there again, I also don't fundamentally agree that every class has to have their own special snowflake mechanics. Relatively few of these actually exist in 5e.

I had the thought to design my game in that direction but frankly thats a constraint that just doesn't lead to very good outcomes.

You have not described what your criteria is for mechanical similarity to or distinctiveness from spells.

Mechanically, what, to you, triggers an "oh that's basically a spell" response?

Take away the specific resources involved with both and describe to me the mechanical distinction between Trip Attack and Grease, other than, of course, the mildly different effects provided.

There isn't one, and there isn't a linguistic means to communicate that other than to just point to it.

And Ill preemptively note that abilities aren't (always) affected by the same perception. Abilities have a specific framing that tends to trump the specific mechanics involved, which is often bolstered by the fact that most of them are unique to the class they're associated with, whereas maneuvers and spells are not.

 

[Remathilis]

A possibly unpopular opinion: Martials SHOULD be magical at the highest levels. They should be able to cut through steel. They should be able to move at blazing speeds. They should be able to leap great distances. They should be able to stand their ground against punches from giants and tail slaps from dragons. They should be able to run into a large group of minions and strike them all down like chained lightning or a big explosion.

What powers those magical abilities except the metagame currency of levels and XP? What allows him to break the laws of physics?

 

[Chaosmancer]

I agree casters need to be wrangled in but they aren't

I'm guessing from the strange jumping of that block of text you are responding to someone who blocked me, so apologies if I slightly miss the mark. However, I'm actually not in agreement that casters need nerfed per se.


There are about five or six incredibly "broken" spells that I tend to find need to be limited. Usually by limiting access. If I had to make it into a list...

Limited Access (needs to be gotten as part of a quest): Clone, Simulacrum, Wish -> These spells represent a level of power and agency over the world that they really need to be carefully handled, not just given out for free. I sometimes put things like soul Jar into this as well.

Needs altered -> Wall of Force -> This spell not only shuts down far too many fights, but it also ignores the fantasy associated with it. It needs to have some ability to be broken by large enough damage. Perfect barriers only work on the weak, not the strong.

Just got rid of -> Prismatic Wall -> This thing is just the must stupid thing ever. Unless you just hand a player the spell description, they are never going to be able to break it, and therefore it feels unfair to have the bad guys be able to break it. So it ends up being way more powerful than I feel like it should. I know it is a classic, but I find it badly designed.


But once those are out of the way... then I tend to find casters are sitting in a very good spot. In an all-caster team, the threats feel about right, and the power feels about right, and I don't see a need to actually nerf anything. It all feels good.... unless you have a primary martial, who then can start feeling overwhelmed and less useful. So, to me, the obvious solution is powering up martials, not nerfing casters.