D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Emberashh]

i don't understand how what i said and what you said to gamma correlates in any way. what i described are not "effects" or "resources" - they are fundamental properties of how spells work compared to maneuvers.

And that's still not what Im talking about.

• Nonspecific people say the mechanics feel the same.
• You have no perspective on what might be the cause for this.
• We should do something else.

1. Yes, theres literally a whole meme about Weeaboo Fightan Magic over it.

2. I literally described what the problem is, where its coming from, and how it can be addressed.

 

[Gammadoodler]

1. Yes, theres literally a whole meme about Weeaboo Fightan Magic over it.

2. I literally described what the problem is, where its coming from, and how it can be addressed.

1. IIRC, that was 3.5E meme, no? So no particular relation to 5e mechanics.

2. You haven't. You've asserted that there is a problem. And you have asserted that you have solved it. You have failed to specify any root cause of the problem..unless you're going with "they feel the same because they feel the same".

If that is what you're going with, cool. If it were me, I would have gone with:

• To me, spell mechanics feel like [insert qualitative evaluation of spell mechanics]
• To me, 5e battlemasters' maneuvers feel similar because [insert description of qualitative similarity with spell mechanics]
• I think martial mechanics should feel like [insert qualitative description of mechanics and how they differ from spells]

Edit: here's a test. When someone asks you how your solution makes martial abilities feel mechanically distinct from spells, what do you tell them?

 

[bloodtide]

We're veering back into "what even is magic?" again.

This is a big point though.

1.The most classic is that magic is "impossible" and does not "work" under the rules of "modern science" , so it's Anti-Science. This is the classic Mundane vs Magic. This also has the split of things must be all mundane or all magic. The vast bulk of all RPG and all Fiction use this one. Nearly any movie that has magic in it is SURE to have a scientist character that says "But that is impossible! It breaks the laws of science!"

2.The other side is that there is NO difference between "magic" and "mundane". Everything follows the same Universal Rules. This one is much more rare in a RPG or any Fiction. The only major "popular" fiction that features it is Marvel comics. Both Dr. Strange and Thor use "magic", but it's stated that it's "not", and it's just "unknown" science and technology.

3.Then you get the weird middle point. This is where psionics are. They "seem" like magic...but are "science".

 

[FallenRX]

But that doesn't really help the core idea. The core idea is that the OP wanted to make high level martials less reliant on magic. Giving them magical items to rely on instead, while it works, is very similar to saying "Fine, I'll only give you six instead of half a dozen" you aren't really... changing anything.

Now, I think I agree that long range teleportation or planar travel is just always going to be magical. The real question, I think, is availability. Because with things like making teleportation circles activatable with just a code, you really are moving them into a more common and more widely-used space, because anyone can use them.

DnD is a magical game, and most fantasy heroes rely on magical items, i feel people need to just get over this hang up.

Magic items are expected to be gotten in the game, people argue it but they literally tell you this, why not embrace it.

 

[Gammadoodler]

DnD is a magical game, and most fantasy heroes rely on magical items, i feel people need to just get over this hang up.

Magic items are expected to be gotten in the game, people argue it but they literally tell you this, why not embrace it.

Because Casters are not reliant on acquiring better magic items as a primary way to improve their abilities.

Why should martials?

Having magic items..good
Needing magic items..bad

 

[Emberashh]

1. IIRC, that was 3.5E meme, no? So no particular relation to 5e mechanics.

2. You haven't. You've asserted that there is a problem. And you have asserted that you have solved it. You have failed to specify any root cause of the problem..unless you're going with "they feel the same because they feel the same".

If that is what you're going with, cool. If it were me, I would have gone with:

• To me, spell mechanics feel like [insert qualitative evaluation of spell mechanics]
• To me, 5e battlemasters feel similar because [insert description of qualitative similarity with spell mechanics]
• I think martial mechanics should feel like [insert qualitative description of mechanics and how they differ from spells]

1. Its the same fundamental problem.

2. Again, this was described. That you don't like that explanation reallly isn't a me issue.

Edit: here's a test. When someone asks you how your solution makes martial abilities feel mechanically distinct from spells, what do you tell them?

Because no matter how you look at it theres no mechanical cross over. It feels different, plays different, and just is different.

There is no spell combo system, just as much as there is no martial spell system.

And ironically, I even have two instance where there is a mechanical cross over; Ive been in the efforts to take the Mighty Deed and not only adapt it for my own system, but also introduced a magic variant thats going to power my take on the Sorcerer, and its been my plan from the beginning to take Battle Combos and adapt them to a Battlemage class.

But even then, it isn't just copy-pasted mechanics with minute differences. The entire context for how a Sorcerer uses the underlying Deed mechanic versus a Rogue, or how a Battlemage is going to use the Combos, is very distinct.

This is, I'll remind, why I said I don't agree that every class needs its own special snowflake mechanics.

(And Ill also remind that I, personally, don't have a hang up over this. My problem with maneuvers is squarely on the fact that they're boring and their representation as "the thing" for more complex martials takes all the air out of the room; much more design space to be creative when you're not trying to copy and paste the same mechanic to every single martial.)

 

[Emberashh]

Because Casters are not reliant on acquiring better magic items as a primary way to improve their abilities.

May be they should...

Like, theres an entire literary history of tropes about magical staves, wands, orbs, grimoires, etc to draw on for this.

And Id even go as far as to say that magic is typically better all around when such things are required.

 

[Gammadoodler]

May be they should...

Like, theres an entire literary history of tropes about magical staves, wands, orbs, grimoires, etc to draw on for this.

And Id even go as far as to say that magic is typically better all around when such things are required.

I'd be inclined to agree.

 

[Krachek]

And we are back to "don't worry fighter, you may suck, but your gear doesn't!"

A man who can only be great because of his tools, isn't great. Heck, would you consider someone who used a pre-programmed robot to make insanely accurate shots with a rifle a sniper? Is the world's greatest sniper the man who can hit ENTER on his keyboard to launch his sniper drone then go back to watching Netflix?

In my fantasy, Fighter use weapon, armor, mount, the more magical and powerful they are the better it is.
otherwise I would play a werewolf that crush his ennemies with his claw and bite.

 

[Gammadoodler]

1. Its the same fundamental problem.

2. Again, this was described. That you don't like that explanation reallly isn't a me issue.



Because no matter how you look at it theres no mechanical cross over. It feels different, plays different, and just is different.

There is no spell combo system, just as much as there is no martial spell system.

And ironically, I even have two instance where there is a mechanical cross over; Ive been in the efforts to take the Mighty Deed and not only adapt it for my own system, but also introduced a magic variant thats going to power my take on the Sorcerer, and its been my plan from the beginning to take Battle Combos and adapt them to a Battlemage class.

But even then, it isn't just copy-pasted mechanics with minute differences. The entire context for how a Sorcerer uses the underlying Deed mechanic versus a Rogue, or how a Battlemage is going to use the Combos, is very distinct.

This is, I'll remind, why I said I don't agree that every class needs its own special snowflake mechanics.

(And Ill also remind that I, personally, don't have a hang up over this. My problem with maneuvers is squarely on the fact that they're boring and their representation as "the thing" for more complex martials takes all the air out of the room; much more design space to be creative when you're not trying to copy and paste the same mechanic to every single martial.)

It isn't that I don't like your explanation. It's that you've steadfastly refused to provide one.

Battlemaster maneuvers feel the same as spells because they do

Your thing feels different because it does.

These are not explanations..these are assertions. They hold equal weight to contrary assertions. Little.

Edit: here's another test. Your solution for martial abilities feels like spells. How am I wrong?