D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Emberashh]

Because all those things happen to other characters too.

Powers manifesting differently in different people is a whole thing.

A class needs its identity by level 3, and if Supernatural Hero is part of the Fighter's identify, he needs to be supernatural by level 3.

Considering thats when Fighters get their subclass, it kinda makes that argument moot. The Fighter is supernatural if they pick the requisite subclass (nearly all of them save 1, may be 2).

And thats without considering the Supernatural nature of Second Wind and even Indomitable.

 

[Remathilis]

my point was more that to the person i was responding to that 'magic' is a specific phenomena in DND with specific connotations attached to it, and using 'magical' as a catch-all term for all beyond realworld 'mundane' power not distingishing between the specific force called 'Magic' and 'the fantastical/martial magic' causes confusion between people who read 'magical' with different connotations.

i have no issues with the martial power source/martial magic as far as i vaguely understand it because it let you do the fantastical feats in the game in a way that thematically felt like the heroes who were victorious against monsters and evil sorcerers with naught but a sword and sometimes not even that, rather than the 'wizard who uses sword magics'.

I use magic to refer to any effect that isn't replicatable in the real world by normal people. Flying isn't possible without expensive technology. Neither is moving mountains. Partly because if you're going to do that kind of supernatural stuff, you need a limitation on it, and I find the notion of anti-magic (or dead magic) should be just as applicable to the mythic fighter as it should be to the mythic wizard.

 

[Remathilis]

Interesting. Was this in like Netflix or something?

I can see it being useful for categorization in the same way they might do "movies based on books" or "award winners"

Just doesn't tell you much about the movie itself.

I saw it on a lot of discussions about MCU movies post Avengers. I don't know if it was formalized or colloquial, but it was a thing in discussion for a good while.

 

[Remathilis]

Powers manifesting differently in different people is a whole thing.




Considering thats when Fighters get their subclass, it kinda makes that argument moot. The Fighter is supernatural if they pick the requisite subclass (nearly all of them save 1, may be 2).

And thats without considering the Supernatural nature of Second Wind and even Indomitable.

That's kinda my point: by third level a fighter should know if he's supernatural or not. I'm not a fan of "you've killed your 1,000th orc, now you can fly" type of mythic awakening because it feels absolutely gamest. Levels already have that problem, lets not make it worse.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Because all those things happen to other characters too. Let's take a cheap example: a fighter has been subject to so many magic potions that he gets an innate ability to regenerate. Ok but the rogue has chugged just as many, where's his regeneration? What about a wizard who drinks one daily? Is HE getting regeneration? How many magic potions do you need to regenerate? What if you never drank a magic potion, do you still regenerate?

I'm being cheeky of course, but D&D for the most part lays out what your character is going to do at levels 1-3, and then you improve on it for the remaining levels. Rangers have spells and wilderness abilities by level 4 and only improve in competency. A druid knows how to Wild shape by level 2. A barbarian isn't a mundane fighter for 10 levels and THEN learns rage, he's raging at level 1. A class needs its identity by level 3, and if Supernatural Hero is part of the Fighter's identify, he needs to be supernatural by level 3.

And all those characters level up..casters get access to greater and greater magics as a result of their experience.

Like, we don't ever get any real narrative justification for what leads to Bards and Sorcerers and Druids getting the ability to cast higher level spells on level up or more spells generally. We just let them, trusting that the experience they gained was enough to cover whatever narrative requirements might exist.

We could just do the same for martials, but actually give them good stuff to do.

 

[Clint_L]

I have no problem with expanding ritual magic in DnD. I also agree that one solution choke points are bad.

But let us not pretend about what we are talking about here. If the solution is expanding ritual magic, then the solution is to give non-magical characters magic. If the alternative solution to a force wall is to find a magical item to break it, the solution is giving non-magical characters magic. And that may very well be the solution... but let us not pretend it isn't just acknowledging that the only thing that really makes an impact on the game is magic.

Are you seriously claiming that "the only thing that really makes an impact on the game is magic"? This seems very hyperbolic - I am currently playing a monk and I feel like I am having plenty of impact on our games, as is the barbarian in our party. Incidentally, in a previous campaign my spouse's monk did have a solution for a wall of force: she ran up and over it.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

I use magic to refer to any effect that isn't replicatable in the real world by normal people.

so falling 60ft and getting up and running for 2 minutes

haveing a carry capacity of a 10 str since I don't know many people who can carry 150lbs all day, and most can't even lug it a few feet

Flying isn't possible without expensive technology. Neither is moving mountains. Partly because if you're going to do that kind of supernatural stuff, you need a limitation on it, and I find the notion of anti-magic (or dead magic) should be just as applicable to the mythic fighter as it should be to the mythic wizard.

 

[Emberashh]

That's kinda my point: by third level a fighter should know if he's supernatural or not. I'm not a fan of "you've killed your 1,000th orc, now you can fly" type of mythic awakening because it feels absolutely gamest. Levels already have that problem, lets not make it worse.

They do...

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

And all those characters level up..casters get access to greater and greater magics as a result of their experience.

Like, we don't ever get any real narrative justification for what leads to Bards and Sorcerers and Druids getting the ability to cast higher level spells on level up or more spells generally. We just let them.

We could just do the same for martials, but actually give them good stuff to do.

My bard or sorcerer went to bed one night and woke up the next morning able to fireball 2/day since they leveled up to level 5

wizard isn't much better... I spent a week in the woods and in a dungeon and went form 1st to 3rd level and somehow 4 new spells appeared in my book and I now know 2nd level spells like hold person and mysty step. Maybe I am more like a warlock I killed some goblins and those souls made me more powerful

 

[Remathilis]

so falling 60ft and getting up and running for 2 minutes

haveing a carry capacity of a 10 str since I don't know many people who can carry 150lbs all day, and most can't even lug it a few feet

¯\(ツ)/¯

Ya know, I've tried to find a compromise, and I don't think I can give the ground needed. If you want your fighter to fly, give me a magical reason your fighter can fly, and you can fly. But I keep getting "no, my fighter should fly because high level PCs need to be able to fly and it's not fair I can't fly when the wizard can! Also, don't call it magic."

So I'll bow out again, having once again found the point where people wanting nonmagical flying fighters.