D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Chaosmancer]

I see no contradiction between being BOTH magical AND having "Remarkable" reflexes and perceptiveness.

That's like saying you don't see the difference between being behind twenty inches of bullet resistant glass and just dodging. One of those things likely matters a lot more to it being possible than the other.

 

[Yaarel]

Do you honestly expect anything more? At best we’re going to get those new weapon mastery rules. That’s pretty much about it.

For the sake of D&D 5e itself, and the viability of its gaming engine?

Yeah, I honestly expect the 5e designers to resolve this issue about the Fighter needing to flourish at high tiers, especially with regard to noncombat challenges that are extremely magical, or require extreme magic to overcome.

Maybe the designers have their hands tied by feedback? But even then, they seem to want more players to play at the higher tiers, hence interest in things like Epic Boons, and they care about the Fighter players being able to play at higher tiers too.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Supernatural martial arts training. An explanation why they can do things others humans can't.

Cool. Then fighters and rogues get supernatural fighter and rogue training too. After all, while the HEMA treatise's we have here on earth don't talk about the way your soul affects the weave of magic that is around all things.... I can bet Faerun talks about it and trains their fighters to master it.

 

[Yaarel]

Why in god's name are they playing Dungeons and Dragons.

Peer pressure, ironically. And they genuinely like the nonmagical Fighter.

They have a sucktastic, non-magical fighter in the Champion, the albatross that weighs down the entire class by existing. And it's 'real' in the way that people think 'real' people are bad at fighting and Jack LaLane never existed. Where is the non-magical fighter who is just a badass like in every action, fantasy, sci-fi, entertaining movie for those people who want that?

What if, the Champion became a prestige class with only 8 levels?

And the Fighter became a full-on Martial mage.

It is a vision.

 

[Chaosmancer]

They are listed.

For Strength, it's size catergory. Every size up form Medium is double strength. Wth giants being the largest beings with humaniod proportions.

Ah good, I was worried, let me just crack open my Monster manual.... huh, weird. You just said that "Human, Inhuman, Superhuman, and Mythic" are listed as the size categories. But my book says "Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge, Gargantuan" Was there an errata I missed?

For Toughness its HD.
For Speed, its speed.

Oh, okay I'll just.. hmmm, nope. I even did a CTRL+F for inhuman or superhuman in the PHB. No results anywhere near the mention of Hit Dice or Speed. Hit Dice seem to generally go from 1 to 20, but of course some monsters go up to things like 33 HD. Speed also seems to range from 5 ft to 150 ft. But they don't seem to be divided in any way.

So, how about this. Since you are clearly quoting rules for what these terms "Human, Inhuman, Superhuman, and Mythic" mean, and I just can't find them. Why don't you tell me the page numbers they are defined on? Then we can figure out why my books don't seem to carry these categories which are obviously part of the game and not something you just made up on your own.

So the question is can your warforged, human, or elf lift like a humaniod, an ogre, or a giant.

"But my PC can get the same strength as a true giant with epic boons and magic items"

Yes,but they still have to roll a check to throw a 1,000 lbs rock. A cloud giant does not.
Your elf still needs to be dragon orgin to have an effectively higher HD.

The question is whether a fighter should be able to lift 1000 lbs effortless and just throw the Wall of Force back in the wizard's face without a check?

And the answer is yes. Yes they should be able to lift 1,000 lbs, maybe not effortlessly but certainly reliably. And I'd prefer to just shatter the wall of force rather than try and make rules for a snow-plow blade of force.

Because, this isn't really a question. You are trying to make it a question by partitioning things and saying that martials can't exceed certain arbitrarily decided limits. Because they are human. And forgetting it seems that my entire point is that not all martials are human.

 

[Vaalingrade]

What if, the Champion became a prestige class with only 8 levels?

I'd rather it become a hated memory.

And the Fighter became a full-on Martial mage.

Or.

Or. It became someone good at fighting in the world they learned to fight in instead of being forced to be a mage for absolutely no good reason.

 

[Yaarel]

Maybe the nonmagic Fighter continues from the origins of D&D as a literal wargame, where the point of the game is to simulate reallife military combat and tactics.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I was just watching some of The Gauntlet videos on Youtube; if you're not familiar, it's a test of high powered builds, to see if they can tackle a nasty solo adventure with the aid of two NPC sidekicks. In the last battle, you have to stop a Mind Flayer Arcanist from finishing a ritual after defeating his goons.

The last video I saw, the player's character died, the Expert NPC died, and the warrior remained...but it was basically over at that point because the Arcanist was protected by a Wall of Force, so even if they miraculously defeated the minions, they couldn't stop the Mind Flayer from doing what they were up to.

This is a problem that only has a magical solution, and this was only a level 14 adventure.

Oh, that bodes ill for the next person to run it. Supposedly they are planning to use a pure monk character.

 

[Yaarel]

Or. It became someone good at fighting in the world they learned to fight in instead of being forced to be a mage for absolutely no good reason.

When I say "magic", I mean it in the broadest sense, including soft scifi.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Getting a "magical permit" "to have interesting mechanical choices" is exactly how 5e works.

Which is why we are complaining about it and saying it should change