D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Remathilis]

Do you not realize the thread you are in is not one about fighters or wizards those are just examples. It is about removing magical dependency. That is the name of what we are in talking. So yes I am talking about removing magic depending things.

I get. And most of the posts in it have been asking for the Roman legion to have special spears that are as effective as machine guns but don't use bullets.

 

[Scott Christian]

I mean, people who don't see the problem shouldn't be the lead designer on creating the solution though right?

I know (think) you are trying to help, but a much more charitable position would be:

"I don't see the disparity and don't really get why this is needed, but it seems an important part of having fun for some people. As long as this new mythic martial class isn't more powerful or versatile than the current Wizard let's get it in."

Again, this is assuming a revamp of spellcasting is off the table.

Why would my default position be to not help? I understand game mechanics and D&D as well as anyone here. Just because I don't see the problem doesn't mean I can't understand what you are saying.

You stated this but haven't explained why this would be the case. Again, all-caster parties can exist today so adding a mythic martial class that is no more powerful or versatile than the Wizard would do nothing but add a different flavored high level option. How would this ruin things for some people?

The champion and battlemaster would still exist for those that want them. These people appear to be bad citizens that shouldn't be catered to. "I have what I want. If you get what you want, even though it doesn't invalidate any of my other options, I'll take my rubber ball and go home. "

Please explain if this is not so.

The reverse is true, how does having a 20th level fighter that can only take out hundreds of low-level goblins ruin things for some players? How does having a wizard that can overcome some problems better than a fighter ruin the game for some people? I mean, they don't have to let the wizard take the most useful spells.
Most players do not min/max every sort of advantage. Why don't you just min/max your martial. If you do, you will probably be way stronger than a 20th level I built.
It's almost like story is irrelevant to these constructs you are comparing.

It is never a case of I take my ball and go home. It is a case that my solutions aren't needed because they are not strong enough. Because in the end, it is all about the player wanting more without sacrificing anything in return. It is the crux of half the debates on these forums.

How about this solution, make a house rule that a fighter can activate a wish spell with every crit. They can stockpile these. There you go, problem solved. Now, after defeating hundreds of goblins, they have 10-20 wishes. They can use these to open arcane locks, get across 100' chasms, turn invisible, go to another plane, or summon a dragon. You can even house rule it. So now, no problem exists at your table.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well if your party is nothing but human fighters, then yes. The absolute odds that someone on the party cannot climb, fly or teleport over the gap with a rope and tie it off on the other side is microscopic. Hell, a barbarian can throw a halfling as an improvised weapon up to 60 ft!

My point is that D&D doesn't consider that a meaningful challenge. Which is why you can circumvent it in so many different ways without using a spell slot. And that leads back to the problem with "nonmagical" answers. A human fighter considers this a challenge. An eladrin or aarakroca fighter does not. Is the problem with the fighter or the human now? What if your human fighter is an echo knight, eldritch knight or psi warrior? Is the problem with the fighter or with the subclasses like champion?

I ask because I feel the conversation is aimed to a specific point: it's not that the fighter cannot cross the pit, it's that he cannot do it effortlessly and NONMAGICALLY. The latter is the key. It's not that the fighter cannot get access to magical means of crossing the gap via species, subclass or feats, it's that the human champion fighter cannot do it nonmagically.

To that I say: tough.

In D&D, magic is technology. If you eschew all magic, you get left behind. I would expect the Roman legions would be mowed down by a battalion of WW2 machine gunners. Advance or die. You don't get to say the Roman legionnaires get special bulletproof shields because it's not fair, you give them freaking firearms. If the fighter is left behind because it's non magical then make. him. magical.

The issue isn't with the fighter. The issue is with nonmagical. The fix is easy after that.

I do see the point of this. Virtually every D&D setting is high magic by fantasy story standards. Given that, ignoring magic is a choice, and complaining about it afterward is a little strange. If you want nonmagical solutions to matter, then you need to have access to fewer magical solutions. And that needs to happen at your table, because WotC isn't going to fix it for you.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Do you not realize the thread you are in is not one about fighters or wizards those are just examples. It is about removing magical dependency. That is the name of what we are in talking. So yes I am talking about removing magic depending things.

I hope you're talking about 3pp and/or homebrew solutions. I find it strange that this thread is even in the OneD&D forum. It has nothing to do with OneD&D or WotC.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I don't know given the power of spellcasters but the martial as ruler and spellcaster as advisor (sometimes scheming to be ruler but doesn't often get there) is a common fantasy trope.

I’ve always assumed that it’s because everyone in the nation from farmers to captain of the royal guard would set themselves to regicide immediately if an archmage came to rule the nation.

No one wants a king that can dominate minds and enter people’s dreams, much less everything else a wizard can do.

 

[nevin]

Well if your party is nothing but human fighters, then yes. The absolute odds that someone on the party cannot climb, fly or teleport over the gap with a rope and tie it off on the other side is microscopic. Hell, a barbarian can throw a halfling as an improvised weapon up to 60 ft!

My point is that D&D doesn't consider that a meaningful challenge. Which is why you can circumvent it in so many different ways without using a spell slot. And that leads back to the problem with "nonmagical" answers. A human fighter considers this a challenge. An eladrin or aarakroca fighter does not. Is the problem with the fighter or the human now? What if your human fighter is an echo knight, eldritch knight or psi warrior? Is the problem with the fighter or with the subclasses like champion?

I ask because I feel the conversation is aimed to a specific point: it's not that the fighter cannot cross the pit, it's that he cannot do it effortlessly and NONMAGICALLY. The latter is the key. It's not that the fighter cannot get access to magical means of crossing the gap via species, subclass or feats, it's that the human champion fighter cannot do it nonmagically.

To that I say: tough.

In D&D, magic is technology. If you eschew all magic, you get left behind. I would expect the Roman legions would be mowed down by a battalion of WW2 machine gunners. Advance or die. You don't get to say the Roman legionnaires get special bulletproof shields because it's not fair, you give them freaking firearms. If the fighter is left behind because it's non magical then make. him. magical.

The issue isn't with the fighter. The issue is with nonmagical. The fix is easy after that.

except in 5e we've limited the magic so much that you wouldn't be able to mow down a legion of Romans unless your talking a 15th to 20th level magic user. And they'd have a good chance of killing him if even 10 percent of them were 5th level and had magic weapons. Plus most protective magic doesn't work with seige engines. If we are throwing real world into the equation 100 archers and a few siege would kill your mage just by simple odds.

You way underestimate human ingenuity. Every person in the enemy army knows the mage is target number one. Every assassin who works for the ruler knows the mage is target number one.

All I hear from you is everything needs to be the same and because it's not fighter's suck. A 20th level figher can crawl into a cave and kill a dragon one on one. I gaurrantee that whole Roman legion would be lunch even if they had their non magical rifles. You try to make your argument by ignoring the fact that the figher is a superhero. Past 3rd level they do things that no real world fighter could do. Navy Seal jumps up stabs manticore dies as stinger goes through him. DND fighter looks at the wound grimaces and kills it, pulls out the wound makes his fortitude save and sleeps off the poison. If you want to argue at lest argue holisticaly and quit cherry picking your situations.

 

[nevin]

I’ve always assumed that it’s because everyone in the nation from farmers to captain of the royal guard would set themselves to regicide immediately if an archmage came to rule the nation.

No one wants a king that can dominate minds and enter people’s dreams, much less everything else a wizard can do.

that would depend on the situation. The power of the Wizard, his charm and Charisma and if he or she abused thier ower. But Even if the wizard was the best person in the world, there would alway's be internet style trolls trying to convince everyone that they were abusing thier power. Just lend me your ears while I spin my conspiroucy theory. ....LOL

 

[Umbran]

At high level politics, enemies, gods, kings, High clerics and outsiders are all more important than any ability anyone in your party has unless the game is a MMO simulator.

Mod Note:
This comes across as if you are speaking as an authority that you aren't, and as if others cannot have experiences that do not match what you describe.

That creates problems and arguments. Maybe speak to your own experiences, rather than lay claim to everyone else's, please and thanks.

 

[Emberashh]

it's that he cannot do it effortlessly and NONMAGICALLY.

I would say no one should be able to overcome a particular challenge effortlessly, magical solution or not.

Spells should fail, misfire, or even backfire. There is zero reason any spell should "just work".

 

[Remathilis]

I would say no one should be able to overcome a particular challenge effortlessly, magical solution or not.

Spells should fail, misfire, or even backfire. There is zero reason any spell should "just work".

An argument can be made for that I'm sure. But D&D has always made magic reliable and short of a complete rewrite, the easier method is to give all classes access to magical/supernatural tools rather than silo them to only a few classes.