D&D (2024) Playtest 6: Rogue and Cunning Strike

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
If a melee monster is eating ranged attacks at 150', it already lost the battle.

Not to mention the melee monster has a simple counter to the tactic in dropping prone itself. Counters the advantage and thus no more sneak attack.
Different point on the range. To use steady aim the rogue simply needs to not move for the round. Ranged weapon ranges are so extreme that it's trivial for them to use it with cunning strike from whatever range keeps them from possibly being targeted by a monster subjected to an at will save or lose cantrip or any of the monster's allies right up until the gm starts looking adversarial with tuckers kobolds type additions to a fight
 

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TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Different point on the range. To use steady aim the rogue simply needs to not move for the round. Ranged weapon ranges are so extreme that it's trivial for them to use it with cunning strike from whatever range keeps them from possibly being targeted by a monster subjected to an at will save or lose cantrip or any of the monster's allies right up until the gm starts looking adversarial with tuckers kobolds type additions to a fight
Yea, but I'm simply not seeing a situation where it causes some kind of auto-win (which is ultimately what matters). Right now, it just seems like a strong, useful ability that's class-defining but not OP.
 

Kurotowa

Legend
Yeah tbh sneak strike feels generally rogueish while trip and disarm seem more like swashbuckler things.
Oh, for sure. I’ll be rating the feature “very satisfied,” but using the additional comments to advocate for Sneak Strike in the base class.
I'm okay with it because Stealth Attack is a mini version of Cunning Action (Hide), which all Rogues get. So it's not like it's cutting off those sorts of tactics from everyone else. It's just making Thief Rogues a little bit better at it, the same way Assassins are a little better at Cunning Strike (Poison). That's the sort of subclass specialization that I approve of.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
This is super broken at a glance and should never have passed the sniff test before making it into the UA. rogue doesn't move to gain advantage on a ranged weapon attack (Level3 feature: steady aim). Rogue trades 1d6 from sneak attack & makes that ranged attack disarm or trip the target. couple fights later the GM realizes that they are incapable of using any opponents with weapons and a few after that d&d has turned into only monsters that are incapable of being tripped as usable because this can be done every single round from tier2 on.

Spellcasters do this all the time, so how is it broken that the rogue can?

Rogue:

1) Must be 5th level
2) Must hit first, either with advantage but cannot move or with ally next to foe
3) Target must then make a Dex save (tends to be the easiest save to make on average)
4) Foe is either prone, or disarmed
5) Lasts one round

Spellcaster with Tasha's Hideous Laughter

1) Must be [Edit-1st Level, not 3rd] 3rd level, though more uses at higher levels
2) Does not need to hit first at all
3) Target makes a Wis save (tends to be harder to make than a Dex save on average)
4) Foe is all of prone and incapacitated
5) Foe continues to be prone and incapacitated each round thereafter until they make the save

I've never seen Tasha's Hideous Laughter called "super broken" have you? In fact I often see it called weak due to the save requirement.

It gets worse with Dissonant Whispers, a first level spell that also does damage.

Same goes for Hold Person (Paralyzed so even worse) and Levitate (if you have only melee attacks you're screwed).

Wrathful Smite too at first level. Thunder Wave will send many targets prone at first level.

I am sure others can come up with many more low level save or suck spells.

And ALL of these spell effects are worse than a single round trip or disarm. And I have never heard them described as super broken.

The big difference is of course a spell is a limited resource...but not by much. These are all lower level spells (usable earlier than the rogue 5th level ability) which do more harm than the rogue's ability, and often for a longer period of time. By mid levels many spellcasters could cast them every fight multiple times without a huge draw on their resources. In fact as levels go up a single spell like Hypnotic Pattern is the rough equivalent of many rogues doing this every round.

Just not seeing anything overpowered about this. You're trading damage after you hit for a possible ride effect if they also fail their save. My guess is in use that will be used very judiciously due to the save issue.
 
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tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Spellcasters do this all the time, so how is it broken that the rogue can?
What at will cantrips can do that? How many arrows can an average rogue carry and trivially recover after most fights compared to the leveled spell slots used to limit the spells you are referring to but not naming?
Yea, but I'm simply not seeing a situation where it causes some kind of auto-win (which is ultimately what matters). Right now, it just seems like a strong, useful ability that's class-defining but not OP.
I named a few earlier and even named a few monsters. Flying creatures that can't fly because of an at will ability and melee creatures who can't keep their weapon long enough for the rogue's a death save shielded allies to grab it from the ground are pretty deep into save or lose territory.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
I named a few earlier and even named a few monsters. Flying creatures that can't fly because of an at will ability and melee creatures who can't keep their weapon long enough for the rogue's a death save shielded allies to grab it from the ground are pretty deep into save or lose territory.
Abilities being at-will are vastly overrated. You don't really fight for that many rounds in a normal adventuring day, especially since we all know the 6-8 encounter guidelines are BS.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Abilities being at-will are vastly overrated. You don't really fight for that many rounds in a normal adventuring day, especially since we all know the 6-8 encounter guidelines are BS.
Save or suck and save or lose ones are however. Imagine the impact on a game if every single fight with ranged supporting monsters had one using a ranged trip or a ranged disarm every round. Worse it's not just a disarm, it's "one item of your choice that it's holding". Better not get too attached to those magic items or whatever.
 

Kurotowa

Legend
Abilities being at-will are vastly overrated. You don't really fight for that many rounds in a normal adventuring day, especially since we all know the 6-8 encounter guidelines are BS.
Man, I remember having that argument nearly 20 years ago when Complete Arcane brought us the original Warlock and their at-will powers. People were charting the "absurd" damage potential of Eldritch Blast on the assumption that you'd use it every 6 seconds for a full 8 hours. When in reality the amount of time you spend in combat is far, far shorter than that.

For me, the biggest limiter on these Cunning Actions is that they're double gated. You have to hit on an attack (that qualifies for a Sneak Attack!) AND they have to fail a save. That makes them unreliable enough that I'm none too bothered by them having no resource limit.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Save or suck and save or lose ones are however. Imagine the impact on a game if every single fight with ranged supporting monsters had one using a ranged trip or a ranged disarm every round. Worse it's not just a disarm, it's "one item of your choice that it's holding". Better not get too attached to those magic items or whatever.
This is a PC ability, not a monster one. Although I would have no problem using it on my PCs; they can't really complain about something that's a level 5 rogue ability.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Save or suck and save or lose ones are however. Imagine the impact on a game if every single fight with ranged supporting monsters had one using a ranged trip or a ranged disarm every round. Worse it's not just a disarm, it's "one item of your choice that it's holding". Better not get too attached to those magic items or whatever.
I mean, warlocks have easy access to an at-will push that doesn’t even get a save. It’s really not that big of a deal. Literally just use multiple monsters in an encounter (which is how they’re designed to work anyway).
 

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