D&D (2024) UA Ranger (Playtest 6)

[Horwath]

Its bad when it costs a rangers most important spell slots and still only kills minor inconveniences.

If Conjure Barrage was a 3rd level spell that deal damage like a 5th level spell, it would be good. Or if Conjure Volley dealt 8th level damage.

Like 9th and 17th level PC Abilities.

it would be decent if both would be included with one free use per long rest.
right now it's just, we could have given one more spell known, but we decided to give you fixed bad to mediocre spell.

 

[Gorck]

They both use 3rd level spell slots. Something you have little of.

This would be a more valid argument if Rangers were full-casters who relied solely on their spells to be effective. But Rangers are half-casters who have many tools in their arsenal; spells are just one of those tools.

If they are giving out free spells known, I'd rather take speak with animals which is more iconic, more useful, and is not fighting with Upcasted Hunters Mark for a spell slot.

Both have their uses. Hunters Marks seems like it would be more useful against encounters with 1, 2, 3 enemies. Conjure Barrage & Conjure Volley seem to be more useful against half a dozen or more enemies.

Now, if you want to argue that the numbers (5d8 & 8d8) are too low on the Conjure spells, that's fine. This is a playtest in which we're trying out the design of the abilities & features of the classes. There's still plenty of time for WotC to tweak the specific numbers before the PHB '24 gets released.

For the record, I've always argued that half-caster-specific spells need to be stronger for their level than their counterparts because half-casters get them at a later character level than full-casters. Would 6d8 and 9d8 be better?

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

However, it seems to me now, that some ranger subclasses can use their bonus action every round to add damage to their melee attacks (the Beastmaster and the Horizon Walker) and some that do not have this option.

ALL Ranger subclasses add damage in some fashion though their lv3 features. Some of them just get the negative of having to repeatedly spend their bonus action on it.

Though to address your response, I really do not see better spells until second level when Flame Blade and Flaming Sphere become available.

Even if there's nothing at lv1 yet, lv2 is there soon enough, and... wait, they didn't reprint Summon Beast here, but Conjure Animals is listed? omfg ...anyway, thing with spells is that there will always be more of them with every new book.

 

[Minigiant]

This would be a more valid argument if Rangers were full-casters who relied solely on their spells to be effective. But Rangers are half-casters who have many tools in their arsenal; spells are just one of those tools.

Spell buffs are an important core of ranger damage. It is expected that in any serious fight a ranger, paladin, or Artificer is using spell slots.

 

[Stalker0]

Its bad when it costs a rangers most important spell slots and still only kills minor inconveniences.

Ok so lets test this out a bit.

So on a normal round, a TWF fighting ranger at 9th level with 20 dex is doing lets say 1d6 + 5, 1d6 + 5, +1d6 (for hunter's mark). Lets also throw in a 1d8 damage for the hunter's giant slayer as a "default" option for a ranger. if we assume the old 65% hit rate, than 25 damage * .65 = 16.25 DPR. I normally do 60% myself but since crits are harder to calculate here with all of the floating damage I'm bumping it up 5%.

Ok so conjure barrage does 5d8 damage (22.5) or 11.25 on a passed reflex save. Lets be mean and assume the monsters will pass their reflex saves 65% of the time (so I'm really giving advantage to my attacks here). So that 15.2 DPR per creature hit. (note I'm not actually doing that much less damage per creature than my normal routine).

So just hitting 2 creatures I'm already doing 87% more damage than my normal routine. Make it 3 (which in a 60 foot cone where I'm not worried about friendlies is not that hard), that's 181% more damage.


I mean if your arguing that the spell isn't fireball.... ok its not fireball. But it is a significant boost to the rangers damage in several common areas.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Ok so lets test this out a bit.

So on a normal round, a TWF fighting ranger at 9th level with 20 dex is doing lets say 1d6 + 5, 1d6 + 5, +1d6 (for hunter's mark). Lets also throw in a 1d8 damage for the hunter's giant slayer as a "default" option for a ranger. if we assume the old 65% hit rate, than 25 damage * .65 = 16.25 DPR. I normally do 60% myself but since crits are harder to calculate here with all of the floating damage I'm bumping it up 5%.

Ok so conjure barrage does 5d8 damage (22.5) or 11.25 on a passed reflex save. Lets be mean and assume the monsters will pass their reflex saves 65% of the time (so I'm really giving advantage to my attacks here). So that 15.2 DPR per creature hit. (note I'm not actually doing that much less damage per creature than my normal routine).

So just hitting 2 creatures I'm already doing 87% more damage than my normal routine. Make it 3 (which in a 60 foot cone where I'm not worried about friendlies is not that hard), that's 181% more damage.


I mean if your arguing that the spell isn't fireball.... ok its not fireball. But it is a significant boost to the rangers damage in several common areas.

None of this is wrong.

But it also demonstrates the real problem with Conjure Barrage.

It's a fairly small and extremely boring boost to your damage across multiple targets, and that's all it is, really. It's not some kind of cool ability to clear stuff out, it really doesn't seem like a "barrage" (nor like any of the many videogame attacks with "barrage" in their name). It doesn't let you burn down a boss like Sneak Attack or Smite does. It doesn't let you wipe out a pack like Fireball might (as you acknowledge).

It's just a small, boring, grey-toned, spectacles-wearing, briefcase carrying accountant's attack. He pushes his specs back up his nose and says "Ackshully, it does do more damage!" (not attacking you here lol, but the designers yes). And it does, he's not wrong. But it's boring and uncool. Why are we giving Rangers abilities that are such nothing-abilities?

 

[UngainlyTitan]

ALL Ranger subclasses add damage in some fashion though their lv3 features. Some of them just get the negative of having to repeatedly spend their bonus action on it.


Even if there's nothing at lv1 yet, lv2 is there soon enough, and... wait, they didn't reprint Summon Beast here, but Conjure Animals is listed? omfg ...anyway, thing with spells is that there will always be more of them with every new book.

Yeah, maybe my gripe and it is not only with the ranger but the amount of spells made useless by concentration. They are often not bad spells, just not competitive in their niche with some other spell that also uses concentration.

 

[Stalker0]

Ok so lets test this out a bit.

So on a normal round, a TWF fighting ranger at 9th level with 20 dex is doing lets say 1d6 + 5, 1d6 + 5, +1d6 (for hunter's mark). Lets also throw in a 1d8 damage for the hunter's giant slayer as a "default" option for a ranger. if we assume the old 65% hit rate, than 25 damage * .65 = 16.25 DPR. I normally do 60% myself but since crits are harder to calculate here with all of the floating damage I'm bumping it up 5%.

Ok so conjure barrage does 5d8 damage (22.5) or 11.25 on a passed reflex save. Lets be mean and assume the monsters will pass their reflex saves 65% of the time (so I'm really giving advantage to my attacks here). So that 15.2 DPR per creature hit. (note I'm not actually doing that much less damage per creature than my normal routine).

So just hitting 2 creatures I'm already doing 87% more damage than my normal routine. Make it 3 (which in a 60 foot cone where I'm not worried about friendlies is not that hard), that's 181% more damage.


I mean if your arguing that the spell isn't fireball.... ok its not fireball. But it is a significant boost to the rangers damage in several common areas.

Ok so if conjure barrage is a good use of my action versus a regular attack in several circumstances....is it a good 3rd level spell to use. Or are there better attack spells at that level the ranger should be using?

Lets take a look:

• Call Lightning: Worse damage, much lower area, concentration. But better range and you can use it on going. Decent spell but not a replacement for CB.
• Lightning Arrow: Pretty garbage to be honest.
• Sleet Storm: Not a damage spell but an area control spell. So again a fine niche, but not really a direct comparison to CB.
• Heat Metal: again fine damage upscaled to level 3, but its a single target damage. And as a bonus action on further rounds, I could also use CB for a nova should I wish.
• Flaming Sphere: Our closest competitor so far. A decent area damage, can maintain as a bonus action to move it around each turn. Area is not nearly as a good as CB, and of course....concentration.
• Moonbeam: A similar niche to flaming sphere, but again concentration.

so I'm not seeing the problem. CB has the best single burst area damage for the ranger. It has the best area, and doesn't require concentration. Its also force damage which is one of the best types to use. so its not like other spells for the ranger beat this one, its just about your preferences. If you want to do more damage over time, by all means you have options. But if you want a big burst of pain on a round, especially if you don't want to give up concentration to keep your hunters mark going..... CB seems right up your alley.

 

[Minigiant]

Ok so lets test this out a bit.

So on a normal round, a TWF fighting ranger at 9th level with 20 dex is doing lets say 1d6 + 5, 1d6 + 5, +1d6 (for hunter's mark). Lets also throw in a 1d8 damage for the hunter's giant slayer as a "default" option for a ranger. if we assume the old 65% hit rate, than 25 damage * .65 = 16.25 DPR. I normally do 60% myself but since crits are harder to calculate here with all of the floating damage I'm bumping it up 5%.

Ok so conjure barrage does 5d8 damage (22.5) or 11.25 on a passed reflex save. Lets be mean and assume the monsters will pass their reflex saves 65% of the time (so I'm really giving advantage to my attacks here). So that 15.2 DPR per creature hit. (note I'm not actually doing that much less damage per creature than my normal routine).

So just hitting 2 creatures I'm already doing 87% more damage than my normal routine. Make it 3 (which in a 60 foot cone where I'm not worried about friendlies is not that hard), that's 181% more damage.


I mean if your arguing that the spell isn't fireball.... ok its not fireball. But it is a significant boost to the rangers damage in several common areas.

Your math is off.

Hunters Mark deals 2d6 and lasts 8 hr with a 3rd level slot.

Meaning in 3 rounds it matches Conjure Barrage for hitting one target.

So 9 rounds of combat is equal to a 3 hit .target Conjure Barrage

And that's if it hits. Hunters Mark now that it triggers only ones only needs one of the Ranger's 2-3 attacks to hit.

Whereas CB runs on a saving throw based on a secondary stat.

And Hunters Mark triggers on other creatures and allies' turns. And gets bonuses from subclass.

 

[Stalker0]

Your math is off.

Hunters Mark deals 2d6 and lasts 8 hr with a 3rd level slot.

Meaning in 3 rounds it matches Conjure Barrage for hitting one target.

So 9 rounds of combat is equal to a 3 hit .target Conjure Barrage

And that's if it hits. Hunters Mark now that it triggers only ones only needs one of the Ranger's 2-3 attacks to hit.

Whereas CB runs on a saving throw based on a secondary stat.

And Hunters Mark triggers on other creatures and allies' turns. And gets bonuses from subclass.

So I didn't think of the two as competitors. After all, one requires concentration and both can be used together. But fair enough I will update the numbers with this version of hunter's mark.

Our damage is now 28.5 damage * .65 = 18.525 DPR. Conjure Barrage is 15.25.

Hitting 2 creatures: +67.6% more damage.
Hitting 3 creatures: +147% more damage


Now perhaps you make the argument that instead of using your second 3rd level slot for a CB, you use it for another hunter's mark in case the first one drops. Ultimately that's a question of what your character needs. If you need to nova in an encounter, its better to CB. If you think HM might drop and you need more overall damage in the day, saving your slot is better. What's great is your not forced to choose, you always have CB available if you want it, but if you don't, that's fine too.