D&D General Lethality, AD&D, and 5e: Looking Back at the Deadliest Edition

[Lanefan]

It's not much of a restriction of no one ever exceeds it is it?

The presumption in the game is that every PC will have more than 10 magic items, other wise that restriction on paladins is meaningless. Which means, in a 6-8 PC party, you should have more than 60-80 magic items.

Yep, that sounds more or less right, with variance based on how much AoE damage they've taken recently.

That's utterly ludicrous. Did anyone actually play this way?

Who in their right mind would ever carry potions in glass bottles? What's wrong with metal flasks? Or a bag of holding? After all, you need to destroy the bag before you can destroy the contents.

Ceramic flasks are the most common here. Also, in my games (and I think also by RAW though it's a while since I looked) destroying a Bag of Holding causes its contents to be forever lost. This became a major plot point in a series of adventures I just ran.

Stories like this just remind me of why I don't play AD&D anymore. Yeesh, that sounds like the complete opposite of anything remotely close to fun. Yay, you have a couple of potions. Poof, now you don't. What? The game doesn't have anything like hit locations or any actual ability to damage items, but, now, I'm going to randomly assign that ability to random monsters? Hey, that sounds like a blast. "Uprooted tree"? How big do you think a 1e giant is? An ogre isn't even stronger than a human. Strong human, sure, but, still not stronger than a human. Does my fighter get a chance to destroy all the baddie's items with every attack I make?

If Gauntlets of Ogre Power give an effective strangth of 18.00 that to me implies a typical Ogre's strength is also about 18.00; and as I give monsters their stat bonuses that means yes, an Ogre packs a punch.

 

[Lanefan]

No, not "anyone." It's why I and others have questioned it here because, in 40 years, I've never, ever heard this before. So, interested, I actually dug out my old DMG and looked up the page. And, oh look, we have some creative quoting going on. Because, yes, the part you quoted is there. But, you kinda left out the important bit:

Now, since AD&D does not have hit location tables, how did you deduce that the ogre's attack hit my backpack? After all, that attack must actually be exposed to the form of attack after all.

Again, this is why I absolutely hate these conversations. Selective quotes and selective memory. First it was about fighters being able to use all weapons, now it's ogres that always hit your backpack with every attack.

When it comes to item saves, we've always used a "start on the outside and work inwards" model. Thus, external things (armour, shield, held weapon, backpack) save first, and if they fail then we work inwards. So, if your armour saves then it's assumed everything under the armour is protected, ditto your backpack, etc.

Which means if you keep your potions in your backpack they've an extra layer of protection but if you wear them on your belt for eas of access they're exposed and need to save.

 

[Velderan]

When it comes to item saves, we've always used a "start on the outside and work inwards" model. Thus, external things (armour, shield, held weapon, backpack) save first, and if they fail then we work inwards. So, if your armour sa

We intentionally ignored the backpack just because of the can of worms that was going to open.

I'd also like to say you all are a bunch of jerks in this thread because now I want to play AD&D again. Thanks! My group just switched from 5e to PF2e for our main campaign and will be trying the Call of Cthulhu Starter Set next month so if anyone has suggestions on the pathway from that to AD&D, I'm all ears! lol

 

[Lanefan]

We intentionally ignored the backpack just because of the can of worms that was going to open.

I'd also like to say you all are a bunch of jerks in this thread because now I want to play AD&D again.

Jerks? Hell no.

We're here to save your mortal gaming soul, brother!

 

[overgeeked]

We intentionally ignored the backpack just because of the can of worms that was going to open.

I'd also like to say you all are a bunch of jerks in this thread because now I want to play AD&D again. Thanks! My group just switched from 5e to PF2e for our main campaign and will be trying the Call of Cthulhu Starter Set next month so if anyone has suggestions on the pathway from that to AD&D, I'm all ears! lol

Call of Cthulhu’s Dreamlands or Dark Ages Cthulhu or Cthulhu Invictus.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Good thing we live in the age of 5E where the DM is free to make their game as magical as they want!

 

[Clint_L]

We intentionally ignored the backpack just because of the can of worms that was going to open.

I'd also like to say you all are a bunch of jerks in this thread because now I want to play AD&D again. Thanks! My group just switched from 5e to PF2e for our main campaign and will be trying the Call of Cthulhu Starter Set next month so if anyone has suggestions on the pathway from that to AD&D, I'm all ears! lol

Compared to Call of Cthulhu, AD&D is safe as kittens! So maybe you will be able to sell it to your players that way. In CoC you pretty much expect a character death (or insanity) every game.

Side note: I had the pleasure of having a drink with Lanefan and two of his long-time players/fellow DMs, and they know AD&D inside out; their version of it is heavily adapted and probably more hardcore than what most of us are used to in our TTRPGs. They've been playing together for decades, so obviously are doing something right. It's kind of cool reading all of your responses to this thread, Lanefan, because when it comes to AD&D, you know whereof you speak!

 

[jasper]

Haven’t you talked about this before? If I remember right, no guarantee, in your AL games didn’t most of those deaths come down to the players not working together, or something. So it isn’t that 5E as a system was deadly per se, it’s that your players refused to use teamwork.

Which has been a problem since 1e. Some groups work together. Some don't. Regardless of the system or game.

 

[overgeeked]

Which has been a problem since 1e. Some groups work together. Some don't. Regardless of the system or game.

Exactly. That’s my point. You’ve killed a fair number of PCs in 5E and by your own admission a fair number of those have been directly due to players not working together. So using that skewed data as an indicator that 5E is deadly is a bit off. The parameters for deadly in AD&D are far wider and looser than those in 5E. For 5E to be deadly lots of things have to go very wrong indeed. For AD&D to be deadly you just have to play the game.

 

[Zardnaar]

As I've noted, to not have this, said DMs would have to have actively avoided using the default treasure generation tables.

I only used them very early on.