D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[Mannahnin]

If the exact details between rests in 4e and 5e don’t really matter for your point, I find it difficult to follow that a similar difference in detail between wow and 4e makes all the difference.

Literally the only difference between a 4E short rest and a 5E short rest is the duration.

D&D short rests and WoW cooldowns work pretty differently. WoW isn't simulating a break and breather where adventurers catch their breath and stretch and adjust their armor, have a snack and some water and restore their focus. WoW is just spacing out usage of powers with a fixed number of real seconds or minutes. You can be fighting the entire time, with no break whatsoever, in WoW, and your powers reset at the exact same schedule. In D&D, they never reset if you don't take a break and rest.

 

[Velderan]

Minor point, rhe average is about 2-3 rounds, or 12-18 seconds of narrative time.

That's largely been my experience, but not having anything to back that number up with I figured less than 5 rounds was a safe statement.

 

[darjr]

Literally the only difference between a 4E short rest and a 5E short rest is the duration.

D&D short rests and WoW cooldowns work pretty differently. WoW isn't simulating a break and breather where adventurers catch their breath and stretch and adjust their armor, have a snack and some water and restore their focus. WoW is just spacing out usage of powers with a fixed number of real seconds or minutes.

Yes. And folks have told you that the time difference is a big deal. And the 4e cooldowns needed to not be a timed one because a stop watch is a tool to far for a starter box.

 

[darjr]

I mean how many debates have there been over folks making short rests in 5e 5 minutes or just a moment?

 

[Micah Sweet]

I mean how many debates have there been over folks making short rests in 5e 5 minutes or just a moment?

Exactly. You reduce the time specifically because you want it to act like an encounter power.

 

[Voadam]

For my part, I think that AEDU was definitely inspired by WoW and similar games. It doesn't have to be seen as a pejorative that can't possibly be true. Plenty of people like 4e, and accepting its inspiration shouldn't affect how you feel about something you like.

I always saw it as ADU was always part of AD&D and 3e. Everyone can at will attack with weapons, spells are daily, and class powers are either always on, at will, or x per day. Encounter powers looked like they took 3e barbarian rage and decided that was a great pacing mechanic for a class of powers.

"A barbarian can fly into a rage only once per encounter."

Normalizing AEDU was just smoothing everything out for better balance between classes and characters.

 

[Mannahnin]

Yes. And folks have told you that the time difference is a big deal.

Snarf literally wrote that it's not a rest. That it's not an affirmative action. He asserted that it was a difference of KIND, not merely DEGREE.

Don't gaslight me.

If you want to have a discussion about how big a difference needing 5 minutes to rest makes vs needing an hour that's fine! That's a meaningful difference at a lot of tables, though it will vary from table to table depending on what kind of pace the DM sets.

And the 4e cooldowns needed to not be a timed one because a stop watch is a tool to far for a starter box.

As opposed to what the text actually says? That they're actually the adventurer resting and taking a break?

 

[nevin]

The 1E PH was released in 1978, and the DMG (with the actual combat rules and saving throws; essential parts of the system) in 1979. The whole system was available for 10 years.

Original D&D (abbreviated OD&D or 0E) preceded it, starting in Feb 1974.

2nd edition didn't "bomb" in the sense of not selling at all. It sold, but less than 1E in part because a lot of players decided to just stick with 1E. And in part, as Snarf pointed out, because the big fad years for D&D were late '79 through 1983. 1E sales dropped off a cliff after the boom, and 2E sales were ok, but never matched the peak of when D&D was a fad.

2E's later books sold worse and worse it appears because they were cannibalizing their own sales, with a multiplicity of settings dividing the purchaser base. Ben Riggs has given us this data in his book and online. But the core books sold decently, which is what we're talking about here. Just not as well as other editions.

customers sticking with the old edition is "bombing out" in business. 2e tried to grow in the middle of the 'demonic" war with the baptist church in the south and they gave up and all but pulled out of the southern US. That and the company was just suffering as it grew. It never got organized, never had a solid focus or business plan, and never ran well. But no one is arguing the core books didn't sell decently. It's just that DND never grew as it's business owner's expected till 5e. Even Pathfinder has refused to release sales numbers leading most to believe they aren't any better because companies only maintain secrecy when the news is not good.

 

[darjr]

Snarf literally wrote that it's not a rest. That it's not an affirmative action. He asserted that it was a difference of KIND, not merely DEGREE.

Don't gaslight me.

If you want to have a discussion about how big a difference needing 5 minutes to rest makes vs needing an hour that's fine! That's a meaningful difference at a lot of tables, though it will vary from table to table depending on what kind of pace the DM sets.


As opposed to what the text actually says? That they're actually the adventurer resting and taking a break?

I don’t know if you noticed but Snarf and I are different people? I mean I’m no where near as talented.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Literally the only difference between a 4E short rest and a 5E short rest is the duration.

Literally the only difference between a long rest and a short rest is the duration, so they are the same and serve the same purpose, right?

Literally the only difference between a raw egg, a three-minute egg, and a hard-boiled egg is the duration of cooking time, so people eat them all interchangeably, right?

This is so bizarre. There is such a massive design difference at play here that I literally don't know how to keep explaining this, other than to reiterate the following points-

1. The "E" in AEDU has a meaning.

2. Differences in duration ... matter.

3. If a five-minute rest was the same as a one-hour rest, then I am quite sure that it would be uncontroversial for you to post that short rests in 5e can be five minutes with no real changes to the game, and characters can have unlimited short rests. I am sure that Monks and Warlocks, at a minimum, will finally be happy!

4. And all of this ignores everything else about the pacing of 4e. Encounters in 4e are separated by ... short rests. The DMGin 4e itself defines encounters as being typically divided by short rests (and encounters end when the monsters die or flee). It provides further information on what to do if your players can't or won't take short rests between ENCOUNTERS. There's even further pacing information in the DMG2. This is about narrative pacing.

But sure. They share a name.