D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[darjr]

People who like 4e like to emphasize 5e's similarities to it, since 5e is active and popular and 4e is less so. That's pretty natural.

Some also, strangely, throw out the precision of 4e to do it, arguably one of its goals/benefits.

 

[Imaro]

People who like 4e like to emphasize 5e's similarities to it, since 5e is active and popular and 4e is less so. That's pretty natural.

No, I get that... but the time difference of cooldowns is being used by the same poster to both claim it's a distinct differential between 4e & WoW but trivial difference for 4e and 5e...

 

[Imaro]

Two of these games have "short rests".

The other one doesn't.

So the name is what determines similarity vs difference, regardless of what those names actually represent??

 

[Mannahnin]

I don't think that's an accurate translation or equivalence, though. Which is Voadam's point.

The cooldown periods you've given are 1) multiple times per fight, and a bunch of times in a big fight, 2) multiple times per big fight, and 3) multiple times per day, not every encounter if the encounters are close together.

That's a distinctly different schedule than 1) every single round if you want, 2) once per fight, or less if the fights are too closely spaced, and 3) once per day.

I'm not sure where you get the bolded part from, when I said "abilities you could use a couple times per encounter". We can get into the debate on should I have said couple when in most cases it's probably more than 2 but I'm not sure where you're drawing every single round from anything I said.

For the second, I went with the assumption most D&D fight ends in 5 or less rounds so using an ability that once per encounter seems about right to me.

For the third, I went with once per day assuming a certain number of encounters per day being what a game is built around to ease the number of things people need to track time for. Given the number of abilities that exist in different editions of D&D on some version of a long rest recharge, I'd say many designers employed by WotC and formerly TSR would agree with that assessment.

You've misunderstood.

The first set is my translation of the WoW power reset schedule you described. The number of seconds or minutes of real time, and how they interact with encounters, seems to translate to me as: 1) multiple times per fight, and a bunch of times in a big fight, 2) multiple times per big fight, and 3) multiple times per day, not every encounter if the encounters are close together.

The second set in my post is what 4E has. 1) every single round if you want (at-wills), 2) once per fight, or less if the fights are too closely spaced and you don't get a 5 minute rest (encounter powers), and 3) once per day (dailies).

 

[Mannahnin]

Two of these games have "short rests".

The other one doesn't.

So the name is what determines similarity vs difference, regardless of what those names actually represent??

Absolutely not.

Both 4E and 5E have a mechanic that characters must stop and rest for a defined period if they wish to self-heal and to reset certain of their abilities. If the rest is interrupted the abilities do not reset and they cannot heal.

WoW has a mechanic that different abilities recharge with a fixed number of seconds or minutes between them regardless of what action you are taking. No rest is involved or required.

 

[Micah Sweet]

No, I get that... but the time difference of cooldowns is being used by the same poster to both claim it's a distinct differential between 4e & WoW but trivial difference for 4e and 5e...

For my part, I think that AEDU was definitely inspired by WoW and similar games. It doesn't have to be seen as a pejorative that can't possibly be true. Plenty of people like 4e, and accepting its inspiration shouldn't affect how you feel about something you like.

 

[darjr]

Absolutely not.

Both 4E and 5E have a mechanic that characters must stop and rest for a defined period if they wish to self-heal and to reset certain of their abilities. If the rest is interrupted the abilities do not reset and they cannot heal.

WoW has a mechanic that different abilities recharge with a fixed number of seconds or minutes between them regardless of what action you are taking. No rest is involved or required.

If the exact details between rests in 4e and 5e don’t really matter for your point, I find it difficult to follow that a similar difference in detail between wow and 4e makes all the difference.

 

[Velderan]

You've misunderstood.

The first set is my translation of the WoW power reset schedule you described. The number of seconds or minutes of real time, and how they interact with encounters, seems to translate to me as: 1) multiple times per fight, and a bunch of times in a big fight, 2) multiple times per big fight, and 3) multiple times per day, not every encounter if the encounters are close together.

The second set in my post is what 4E has. 1) every single round if you want (at-wills), 2) once per fight, or less if the fights are too closely spaced (encounter powers, and 3) once per day (dailies).

Appreciate the clarification.

 

[Mannahnin]

For my part, I think that AEDU was definitely inspired by WoW and similar games. It doesn't have to be seen as a pejorative that can't possibly be true. Plenty of people like 4e, and accepting its inspiration shouldn't affect how you feel about something you like.

I definitely think there was an influence. It just doesn't seem like a direct translation.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I definitely think there was an influence. It just doesn't seem like a direct translation.

To me it seems like a translation to table top that's simple and easy to use, but essentially the same concept.