D&D (2024) Class spell lists and pact magic are back!

[Vaalingrade]

This. The (Sp) (Su) (Ex) was almost entirely cruft that made literally every ability in the game very slightly fiddlier.

Here here. Let's get rid of spells entirely.

Every ability should just be 'thing you do'.

 

[tetrasodium]

It is a problem because I can't have a sorcerer as the party primary healer from first level anymore.

Perhaps the problem is that wotc made it too easy for a charisma based arcane full caster sorlock to vigorously stomp on the toes of a wisdom based divine/primal caster and shout in its face with the full might of their arcane spell list without a meaningful sacrifice of its own? If you were complaining that a wizard couldn't function as a main tank with some hypothetical changes to the shield spell or return of ASF would there be an expectation of anything but laughter?

 

[Neonchameleon]

Ok. Forgot about that. Still, what happens at third level when I receive the spell-and spell list- as a class feature? Now I'm stuck with a feat that does nothing?

Why do you think it does nothing? It does less, but still gives you a free spell, an extra spell known, and two cantrips. And healing word and cure wounds are primal as well as divine if you want to play optimization games.

Your problem isn't that the concept no longer works. It works better than it did before because the new sorcerer isn't crippled by number of spells known. It's that you can picture still more optimisation.

 

[Vaalingrade]

The real sin here is niche protection.

 

[Maxperson]

If you were complaining that a wizard couldn't function as a main tank with some hypothetical changes to the shield spell or return of ASF would there be an expectation of anything but laughter?

I "main tanked" a 5e campaign with my Bladesinger. My AC was through the roof, and then I had the shield spell to fall back on. Oh, and the cloak of displacement didn't hurt things, though I really didn't need it to tank.

 

[MoonSong]

Why do you think it does nothing? It does less, but still gives you a free spell, an extra spell known, and two cantrips. And healing word and cure wounds are primal as well as divine if you want to play optimization games.

Your problem isn't that the concept no longer works. It works better than it did before because the new sorcerer isn't crippled by number of spells known. It's that you can picture still more optimisation.

Oh great news. You no longer need to give up customization and have to have mage initiate to patch the class' meager number of spells known, just to enable your character concept because it no longer works without giving up customization...

So in current 5e I need Mage initiate and in the new version I still need it, but for a different reason. Not much progress IMO.

 

[MoonSong]

Perhaps the problem is that wotc made it too easy for a charisma based arcane full caster sorlock to vigorously stomp on the toes of a wisdom based divine/primal caster and shout in its face with the full might of their arcane spell list without a meaningful sacrifice of its own? If you were complaining that a wizard couldn't function as a main tank with some hypothetical changes to the shield spell or return of ASF would there be an expectation of anything but laughter?

Because obviously changes to one spell that disable a niche concept are comparable to changes to the base clase that disable the point of one of the three most played subclasses for that class.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Oh great news. You no longer need to give up customization and have to have mage initiate to patch the class' meager number of spells known, just to enable your character concept because it no longer works without giving up customization...

So in current 5e I need Mage initiate and in the new version I still need it, but for a different reason. Not much progress IMO.

In current 5e you need mage initiate. In the new version if starting at level 1 (which not all groups do) and if you want to rely on sorcerer casting to heal for the first two levels (again you don't have to) you can give up customisation you simply don't now have.

And the whole point of customisation is to make character concepts work. Unless they completely botch the subclass the new Divine Soul Sorcerer will be better than the old at literally every level.

 

[MoonSong]

In current 5e you need mage initiate. In the new version if starting at level 1 (which not all groups do) and if you want to rely on sorcerer casting to heal for the first two levels (again you don't have to) you can give up customisation you simply don't now have.

And the whole point of customisation is to make character concepts work. Unless they completely botch the subclass the new Divine Soul Sorcerer will be better than the old at literally every level.

By coming at third level it is already a downgrade. You get access to a new spell list at the same time that you get a new spell level and can choose two new at most instead of at the time you choose the most spells known and your cantrips.

 

[tetrasodium]

I "main tanked" a 5e campaign with my Bladesinger. My AC was through the roof, and then I had the shield spell to fall back on. Oh, and the cloak of displacement didn't hurt things, though I really didn't need it to tank.

I think that most of us can agree that it would be pretty surprising if wotc does not do something about shield's massive design problem.