Unpopular opinions go here

[Bedrockgames]

I don't think I'd ever seen a movie where the filmmakers seemed actively angry at the fans of the original movie. We were stunned and eventually furious when we walked out of the theater after Highlander 2.

Highlander 2 taught me how to ruin established lore

 

[Bedrockgames]

No, he took a very big swing and for a large part of the fanbase, it felt like an attack, but it was clearly a desire to shake up the franchise in a way that he (and fans of TLJ) thought was for the better.

I don't think he was to blame. If they had let him helm all three movies, you might have had a coherent trilogy. But having him do this, mid-trilogy, in the movie that connects part 1 and 3, is what made zero sense. I have my criticisms of aspects of this movie, but I think the bigger issue was it blasted a hole in the middle of a three part story because of how these movies clearly weren't properly planned.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I don't think he was to blame. If they had let him helm all three movies, you might have had a coherent trilogy. But having him do this, mid-trilogy, in the movie that connects part 1 and 3, is what made zero sense. I have my criticisms of aspects of this movie, but I think the bigger issue was it blasted a hole in the middle of a three part story because of how these movies clearly weren't properly planned.

Disney not doing a good job of having the trilogy for multi-billion dollar brand planned out ahead of time is a shocking decision, to put it mildly.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Oh, TLJ isn't a perfect film. I definitely agree that Finn was done dirty after The Force Awakens.

I actually liked his treatment in TLJ. Him and Rose had chemistry. Not having them become a couple in the third movie was beyond perplexing. They were one of the things that worked in TLJ

But I agree with Johnson's other big aims of democratizing the Force and getting away from the fairly gross Great Man theory that Star Wars has traditionally leaned on. I get that him making Luke Skywalker agree with his premise upset some fans as well, although it didn't seem implausible to me. (Given what he'd seen up to that point, I find it hard to believe that Luke would be all-in on the traditional Jedi worldview.)

In the real world, I would support this kind of politics. In our world, we don't want that kind of aristocratic elitism. I think a fake made up fantasy world that is based on myths like King Arthur (where lineage matters) I'm not particularly concerned. That said, I think one issue I had with it is it really undermines established movies to go in the democratization of the force direction because Star Wars is really meant to be a family saga. I also think it is a mistake to confuse wanting star wars to have lineage matter with the force, for thinking that way outside of the movies. I actually do like many parts of TLJ. But I think one area where it really has a big weakness is how didactic it gets. And I feel like there was a larger problem of this in the broader fandom (where people wanted this kind of media to affirm their beliefs about the world rather than be an escape----again going back to Star Wars roots I think it is really much better an optimistic and moving break from the grim realities of the world that taps into resonant themes). I am not against science fiction that explores current political and moral questions, I just don't think Star Wars is particularly suited to that

The weaker moments in TLJ were when I could feel modern politics intruding. For example the way he kind of lampoons Hux (who in the first film was terrifying and you could clearly connect him to the rise of the third reich). It took out a very important threat (someone who could have even been a threat to Kylo Ren), in what felt like a punching nazis moment of the movie. I think Hux would have been far more effective as he originally appeared in the first new movie. The same with Ren's speech at the end. That was just way too meta and way too about what star wars represents.

I do like Johnson as a director. The movie looks gorgeous. It just felt weird in places because of the way those ideas kept coming into the movie and it really felt odd having this movie sit in the middle of the trilogy. I think it would have been way better to give Johnson a budget to do his own original space opera with the ideas he wanted to explore and have him make his own science fiction trilogy (because I do think he has a great mind for science fiction, as something like Looper shows).

 

[Micah Sweet]

Oh, TLJ isn't a perfect film. I definitely agree that Finn was done dirty after The Force Awakens. But I agree with Johnson's other big aims of democratizing the Force and getting away from the fairly gross Great Man theory that Star Wars has traditionally leaned on. I get that him making Luke Skywalker agree with his premise upset some fans as well, although it didn't seem implausible to me. (Given what he'd seen up to that point, I find it hard to believe that Luke would be all-in on the traditional Jedi worldview.)

That said, the fault for all of this is Disney deciding they could wing the sequel trilogy without putting a detailed plan together ahead of time. It took Elon Musk buying Twitter to outdo this as an insane way to handle a brand.

And I say: do all those things outside of the main saga, and after it (in real time, not in-universe), not right before you finish a story decades in the making.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Disney don't doing a good job of having the trilogy for multi-billion dollar brand planned out ahead of time is a shocking decision, to put it mildly.

I didn't expect them to give me the trilogy I wanted, but I did expect a basic level of competence

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I actually liked his treatment in TLJ. Him and Rose had chemistry. Not having them become a couple in the third movie was beyond perplexing. They were one of the things that worked in TLJ

JJ went scorched earth on TLJ in the way that WotC went scorched earth on 4E. In JJ's case, it feels very much like he was mad at Johnson's choices, but if he had felt that strongly about it, he should have asked to do the second film to begin with.

I think one issue I had with it is it really undermines established movies to go in the democratization of the force direction because Star Wars is really meant to be a family saga.

That's a valid take, but I don't think it's the only take. Prior to people saying this post-TLJ, it never occured to me that Star Wars was about the Skywalkers, so much as one father and his children were a key part of the story. It's a big galaxy, and I think for many fans, everything not-Jedi is what they love. (Well, until The Book of Boba Fett came along to explain that, no, you really don't want to focus on all that other stuff, either.)

The weaker moments in TLJ were when I could feel modern politics intruding. For example the way he kind of lampoons Hux (who in the first film was terrifying and you could clearly connect him to the rise of the third reich). It took out a very important threat (someone who could have even been a threat to Kylo Ren), in what felt like a punching nazis moment of the movie. I think Hux would have been far more effective as he originally appeared in the first new movie.

The way they handled Hux in all three movies was weird. Either Hux should have clearly been in charge post-Snoke or Kylo should have been. An interplanetary empire can't just run on inertia.

I do like Johnson as a director. The movie looks gorgeous. It just felt weird in places because of the way those ideas kept coming into the movie and it really felt odd having this movie sit in the middle of the trilogy.

The Empire Strike Back was really shocking when it came out and incredibly controversial and did the same sort of smashing up the (much more limited) canon that TLJ did. It's just that took place decades ago now, and I think people don't remember that Obi-Wan being a liar and Darth Vader being Luke's dad and the hint that there was another hope if Luke fell were all wild changes to what we thought we knew at the time.

I think Johnson misjudged Disney, JJ and a large portion of the fandom in trying to pull of something similar in the middle of the sequel trilogy. "Rey is nobody," "we're killing Snoke halfway through the film" and "the entire Resistance can fit inside a single starship now" are all huge swings that I think could have really paid off if JJ hadn't gotten his nose out of joint and Disney hadn't screamed "for the love of God, just give them all the fan service," which didn't end up working either.

 

[Thomas Shey]

No game can be all things to all people. Not even GURPS or Savage Worlds. And no game designer should be concerned about trying to please everyone.

Yeah, but the "do we duplicate the core material or not?" question is one few game companies are going to be blase about given the strength of the reactions to it among game fanbases.

 

[Scribe]

The writing in TLJ was so obviously pointed at social media discourse and fandom it was impossible not to roll my eyes.

 

[MGibster]

I don't think I'd ever seen a movie where the filmmakers seemed actively angry at the fans of the original movie. We were stunned and eventually furious when we walked out of the theater after Highlander 2.

Apparently Christopher Lambert and Sean Connery got along famously while filming the first movie and he refused to return for a sequel without Connery. I think bringing back Ramírez would have doomed the sequel no matter what, but they really leaned into destroying whatever goodwill they managed to build with the first movie.

The movie has a lot going for it, good soundtrack, Clancy Brown and Connery, some of the camera work is good, and the story is interesting, but the sum of its parts is greater than the final product. There's a reason it didn't connect with an audience and failed at the box office.