D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Not every NPC that worships a god gets cleric magic, so there's clearly more to it than just belief in a god/concept. Maybe it requires fanatical devotion to give power, even to the extent that you disagree with reality because of belief/delusion. If a Cleric gets power from belief in themselves, it's probably not just mundane self-confidence but is more like having narcissism or a god complex. Or they have to prioritize the philosophy/concept to a similar extent that a religious cleric would, having to reshape their entire lives and behavior around their chosen belief.

 

[Minigiant]

I've always assumed that Clerics and Paladins, would be fanatical in the extreme.

Sure. But a cleric of a philosophy would be exponentially more fanatical.

Sure WOTC allowed clerics of philosophy to let players run clerics who don't worship a god.

But random NPCs channel channel there own divine power. Archfey can't even do it. Archdevils and demon princes conspire to get divine power because they don't have it.

So logic dictates that a cleric of a philosophy has to either be an extremely enlightened sage who discovers an universal truth, a staunch believer of an universal or widely believed concept who warps their whole life around it, or crazier than a demon prince of pride or hubris.

 

[Kurotowa]

I've always assumed that Clerics and Paladins, would be fanatical in the extreme.

I would say that they're committed. Fanaticism implies inflexibility and an inability to work well with those who don't share their creed. Clerics and Paladins have a higher calling they're committed to, for better or for worse, but they don't have to be jerks about it.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Because not every oath, creed, or belief has enough power to do anything.

If the "power of polka" lacks the energy to raise the dead it can't raise the dead.

I don't know, it worked for Butters.

As for the argument about clerics and needing power to draw upon for gods, Eberron has a good way to think about it. Sure, Eberron doesn't have gods in the traditional sense. But Keith Baker proposed that an evil cleric doesn't inherently lose their powers when they supposedly worship a god that is canonically "good," and may in fact fool those within their clergy. This suggests that either good gods allow evil to flourish, they are drawing their power from some other "evil" god (though this doesn't work for clerics that do evil in the name of "good."), or they are fueling their miracles through some wellspring of belief.

The new Castlevania anime has a good example of a "man of god" who is also a forgemaster and in league with the vampires. Does he draw his power from some more inherent capacities? From his faith? From his god? Or is he unknowingly a servant of an "evil" god? I like this being an open question.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Planescape has Clerics in the Athar which are the Agnostic/Atheist faction, and the Heralds of Dust/Dustmen have some Clerics that worship Death and not any particular Deity of death.

 

[MGibster]

At the end of the day, does it really matter? While I personally dislike nebulous concents like faith in a concept sufficient to cast clerical spells, it's just a preference of mine, and a preference that might not apply to games other than D&D. If I had a player who wanted his Cleric to be powered by Stoicism, Objectivism, or is a Pythagorean I'd just shrug my shoulders and say, "Sure." There's certainly precedence for people getting powers via philosophy. I have it on good authority Nietzschism is what allowed Nietzsche to grow that awesome stache.

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[M_Natas]

Yeah, this is why I always disliked the concept of godless clerics. It just gets weird and silly. I tend to build metaphysics of my worlds so that divine magic is explicitly about channelling power from an external source.

This.
The problem with D&D is, that they try to make every class everything.
You wanna play a godless cleric and have all these cool powers but don't want any of the Baggage of actually believing in a god? Sure, go ahead.
Oh, you wanna be a cleric, but you like the Warlock class mechanics? Here, have a Unicorn as a patron. Oh, you wanna be cleric but Sorcerers have cool stuff? Be a divine soul sorcerer.

Like ...

D&D has introduced 3 types of origins of magical powers:

• learning
• borrowed
• innate (I would call it Mutation)

Arcane magic is usually learned or innate. Divine magic is usually borrowed. Innate magic - something is wrong/different with your body/soul to be able to just do it (ancestor was a dragon, went into a magical storm and came out changed ...)

That is the baseline.
So in my games if you want to have divine magic, you need to borrowed it from someone or somewhere external (doesn't even need to be freely given. Chain the unicorn in your wizard tower and drain it for blood to cast divine magic for all I care, at least you will make a good villain in the campaign).

If you want magic that just exist because of your believes - you need to play a sorcerer. Because that is the innate magic class.

An 5e Paladin explanation is just a mess.
So, in my game worlds, Paladins are either beholden to a deity/external power source, or they are basically sorcerer knights (innate casters).

The Warlock is the only one who actually thematically could have all three origins of power.
He borrows power from gods demons and devils.
He can learn magic, seeking out forbidden knowledge by making pacts with powerful beings who will bless him with knowledge or ... even worse: just learn it like a silly wizard, if the Warlock is intelligent enough for it.
Or he tries to change his body to get innate magic. Chugging potions to mutate, having a demon lord twist and transform his body to get him supernatural abilities and so on. - Warlocks want power and they take every way to get it.

• Borrowed Magic can be taken away but is also the easiest to get.
• Learned magic needs to be ... learned. It takes time, money, intellect
• innate magic is the hardest to get. You need to be born with it or something needs to happen to you to change your body (fall in the cauldron with magical potion as a child, having a mad wizard do magical experiments in you, have Cthulhu probe and expand your mind, or a mindflayer larvae implanted ...)

I'm working on some homebrew rules where characters can pray and get answers if they do it right, without needing cleric classes. Of course it is way weaker than normal cleric powers, but it is there.

 

[Clint_L]

So, a divine caster like a Cleric, Paladin, Druid etc don't need any actual divine link to power and can just use "The power of my inner belief )or love or friendship or self respect etc) to gain divine powers.

So why would a Warlock ever make a deal with Cthulu or a Fey Princess? Why would a Wizard spend thousands of hours pouring over spell books?

Because that’s the player’s character fantasy? I don’t see the issue here.

If you don’t like godless clerics, I’m pretty sure no one is going to come to your house and make you play one. Stop worrying about what other people enjoy.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

This.
The problem with D&D is, that they try to make every class everything.
You wanna play a godless cleric and have all these cool powers but don't want any of the Baggage of actually believing in a god? Sure, go ahead.
Oh, you wanna be a cleric, but you like the Warlock class mechanics? Here, have a Unicorn as a patron. Oh, you wanna be cleric but Sorcerers have cool stuff? Be a divine soul sorcerer.

What's the issue? Mechanics are the skeleton to allow for the game to be played. The "skin," story, fantasy (however you may want to call it) is completely separate. There is nothing inherent about the mechanics of a wizard that make them a wizard, only that we've agreed it is a wizard. There is nothing within the mechanics of the cleric class that require devotion to a deity, or devotion of any kind. That's the great thing about D&D and RPGs, they are only limited by a person's imagination. If I want to play a Death Domain Cleric or a Circle of Spores Druid and call them a Necromancer, what's the problem?

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your point. Personally, I think a unicorn patron would be pretty sweet.

 

[Clint_L]

Exactly. In my new campaign at school one player has a character who worships ALL the gods, and just grabs the holy symbol they think best suited to the situation. I love it. In a new home campaign, one player built a paladin but doesn't want her to be religious, so I told the player no worries, she can come up with her own cool explanation of where her character gets her magic. It's fine - the game didn't explode or anything, and everyone had a good time.