D&D 5E The Fighter/Martial Problem (In Depth Ponderings)

[Minigiant]

That is not what that slide shows. It shows the Champion subclass specifically, not the fighter class as a whole. It also shows that more than half (54%) were satisfied with the Champion, which is objectively one of the two weakest fighter subclasses.

It does show the Ranger clas was very unpopular, but that was before the update in Tashas.

Further for the sake of this discussion it is important to note that Ranger is a caster and that with the Tasha's updates it is probably the most powerful class that gets martial weapons proficiency as a class. If you are considering all 3 pillars I think it is pretty clearly the most powerful martial. If you consider combat only the Paladin may be in the same range.

The issue is the word popular.

When WOTC uses the world "popular",they mean lots of people use it.

The Fighter and Ranger were used by a lot of people.
However a lot of people hated how both were implemented.

What did 2023 do to the Hunter Ranger? It made it less situational and less tied to old school hexcrawl play.
What did 2023 do to the Champion Fighter? It let Fighters have manuevers via feats and fighting style and added skill maneuvers.

 

[Minigiant]

Legolas conclusively does more than attack repeatedly. Apparently this is something that requires spellcasting to do in D&D.

Spellcasting like tracking foes moving overland, shooting a lot of arrows in rapid succession, covering one's tracks and avoiding detection using common woodcraft I learned in cub scouts.

Thus, ranger.

Legolas' non-fighter traits is just his elf traits and elf feats.
He's a very elfy fighter the same way Gimli is a dwarfy fighter.

The Fellowship has 4 fighters in it to one caster. A reason why fighters are popular.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Legolas' non-fighter traits is just his elf traits and elf feats.
He's a very elfy fighter the same way Gimli is a dwarfy fighter.

The Fellowship has 4 fighters in it to one caster. A reason why fighters are popular.

okay, but just because those traits came from legolas' elf-ness and he wasn't explicitly endowed with the title of 'ranger' in LotR doesn't mean his capabilities haven't been used to build the conceptual idea of what a ranger is, his archetype is what matters to people playing DnD,

 

[Minigiant]

okay, but just because those traits came from legolas' elf-ness and he wasn't explicitly endowed with the title of 'ranger' in LotR doesn't mean his capabilities haven't been used to build the conceptual idea of what a ranger is, his archetype is what matters to people playing DnD,

But his capabilitiesis not what the conceptual idea of what the D&D ranger is.
The ranger was designed of the basis of Aragorn. Legolas' capabilities in most editions is closest aligned with the D&D fighter than the D&D ranger. Especially with feats being a thing.

Legolas might be close to what a non-D&D ranger is. But everything after that translation and conversion.

 

[James Gasik]

What even is a Ranger, man?

 

[CreamCloud0]

But his capabilitiesis not what the conceptual idea of what the D&D ranger is.
The ranger was designed of the basis of Aragorn. Legolas' capabilities in most editions is closest aligned with the D&D fighter than the D&D ranger. Especially with feats being a thing.

Legolas might be close to what a non-D&D ranger is. But everything after that translation and conversion.

legolas' capabilities are what the conceptual idea of the DnD ranger have come to include, the original ranger concept might have been designed around aragorn but the ranger has grown to include other influences, not to mention even if legolas is a fighter the original ranger was just a variant fighter, and elves' whole deal are very rangerish,

 

[Minigiant]

legolas' capabilities are what the conceptual idea of the DnD ranger have come to include, the original ranger concept might have been designed around aragorn but the ranger has grown to include other influences, not to mention even if legolas is a fighter the original ranger was just a variant fighter, and elves' whole deal are very rangerish,

.not really.

Legolas's key elfish aspects with add to his martial prowess is his heightened senses.

You get that from race and feats.

The ranger isn't just a warrior with 2 skill proficiency and higher ranged accuracy like in many video games.

 

[ECMO3]

However a lot of people hated how both were implemented.

Can you provide a source for this statement, regarding fighters specifically?

 

[ECMO3]

legolas' capabilities are what the conceptual idea of the DnD ranger have come to include, the original ranger concept might have been designed around aragorn but the ranger has grown to include other influences, not to mention even if legolas is a fighter the original ranger was just a variant fighter, and elves' whole deal are very rangerish,

I would disagree with this, primarily because he has no magic, spells and displays no woodcraft. I would say Aragorn is closer to a D&D Ranger because of specifically what he does in terms of sneaking and patching up Frodo, although he falls short as well since he displays no magic.

 

[Minigiant]

Can you provide a source for this statement, regarding fighters specifically?

54%
27%
64%