D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

When talk of 4e's marketing comes up, I always think back to this blog post by Jeff Grubb about the transition from 2nd Edition to 3rd Edition.

With this kind of background, it is no surprise that when it was 4e's turn, the designers were, let's say, dismissive of what they perceived as weaknesses or problems in 3e that they intended to fix with 4e.

I don't think it was merely that they were dismissive toward 3e or running down their own product by calling out its problems. There was a distinctive dismissiveness towards the people who had purchased and were playing their product. This was the period on the boards, inflamed by 4e's actual marketing department where it was acceptable to imply that there was something wrong with you if you had enjoyed 3e. I think that stuck in my craw more than them complaining about 3e itself in dismissive language. It was the distinctive "you are a bad person if you run 3e" that became pervasive if you even mentioned the edition in the run up to 4e. It wouldn't have mattered to me who it was that was saying that.

Beyond the fact that dismissive of the game soon overlapped dismissive of those that played the game, much of the problems that they were talking about felt like problems specific to a particular community - namely the "Living" tables playing officially sanctioned adventures with characters that could be shared across adventures. Most of the problems they were talking about weren't actual fixes to the problems that I had, so when they went on and on about those problems and how they were planning to solve them, it felt very much like the design was going to be intended not to support the game that I had but some other game I wasn't participating in. And I can't help but feel in retrospect that they viewed playing the game as a sort of a multiplayer "raid" and the overriding rules concerns were around making that sort of game functional, even though for the most part that was not the game I had ever played in then 30 years of gaming.

I think the thing you miss is that when 3e had come out I had ceased to be a consumer of their product. I'd gotten fed up with 1e/2e and left, and when I saw 3e's design what I saw was a game that was tightly focused on fixing the actual problems that I had with 1e/2e. Like for example, I can't express how much joy I felt when I saw "Darkvision" had replaced "Infravision", or when I saw the "Scent" ability replacing the old table for creatures detecting invisible creatures, or even just that every creature would have all six attributes defined and use common rules. This was clearly designed for the game I actually played. By contrast, when 4e came out I was still actively in a 3e campaign that I was enjoying, using a modified 3e ruleset that my players still to this day call out as the best rules set they've ever played under, and so I wasn't in need of a radical fix because I was an existing customer.

To your point though, were I an existing customer of 2e and then WotC came out super dismissive of it, I might have had the same emotional response to at least some degree as I did with the 4e marketing. Maybe not as strongly, because at least they would have been talking about problems I likely concurred with, but probably some. And that could explain the mythical 2e/3e edition war that I've heard about but didn't experience.
 
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The PDF's happened after release. The PHB was being widely distributed.

See What's the situation with D&D 4E's PDF availablity. | Dungeons & Dragons / Fantasy D20 Spotlight
Which I only post as a reference for about when it happend.

Dropping the Magazines and hurting 3rd party was a one two punch because both put a LOT of customers right into Paizo's hands directly. Happy Paizo customers.

Paizo said they had access to the subscriber list of Dragon and Dungeon.

They hoped to lure about 1/3rd of them to Pathfinder. They got 2/3rds.
 

Paizo said they had access to the subscriber list of Dragon and Dungeon.

They hoped to lure about 1/3rd of them to Pathfinder. They got 2/3rds.
Not only that they had product paid for or at least subscribed to. Many subscriptions hadn’t run out and Paizo decided to offer their own product, their new adventure paths, as an option to a refund or subscription end.
 

Not only that they had product paid for or at least subscribed to. Many subscriptions hadn’t run out and Paizo decided to offer their own product, their new adventure paths, as an option to a refund or subscription end.

That as well.

I wasn't subscribed but had been getting the magazines best I could since 1999 and liking them since 1996 and that's also when u bought the first ones age 17.

Still got them.
 
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FWIW, I took the marketing I was exposed to around the time of 4e as being quite tongue-in-cheek with a level of over-dramaticness/over-the-topness to it. And what they mentioned as 'problem points' were things that I'd seen joked about in conversations for years, including pointing out some of the more odd or silly elements. So it didn't ruffle me (I rolled my eyes more at the very American caricature of the frenchman trope) and 4e piqued my interest just as 3e had piqued my interest when its first rumblings began (and which led me to this very website!).

But certainly self-deprecating humour and treating certain things with amusement is a very tightrope to walk and likely not a winning marketing strategy to ever pursue. Especially in realms where there are many who take things very seriously and are ready to fight to the death if you even hint that it may not be entirely serious business(tm), whether this be comic books, sports, certain music acts, etc. None of which was helped by the pre-geek-ascendant days where playing RPGs made you quite the punching bag not only from your 'peers' but also chuckled/derided by the adults in your life, which appears to have led to some trauma for some. Lighter tones, or even the hint that something may not be entirely as good as it might be, might not land well.

Add to this the longstanding "tradition" of the grognard as it relates to editions/changes as well...

And Hasbro having their dictates didn't help either.
 

And yet when 3e came out WotC still put out a conversion guide for those wanting to port their 2e characters-games-etc. over to 3e.

No such thing provided for porting 3e to 4e that I've ever seen, nor 4e to 5e for that matter.
There was one for 4e when it came out. I probably still have it in PDF on my home machine. (One of the bits I remember from it was regarding porting over a Monk (which had not yet been designed in 4e) by using the Ranger class as a base.)
 

There was one for 4e when it came out. I probably still have it in PDF on my home machine. (One of the bits I remember from it was regarding porting over a Monk (which had not yet been designed in 4e) by using the Ranger class as a base.)
Would you mind posting this here when you get the chance? I keep seeing scattered references to it online, but can't seem to find a copy.
 


And yet when 3e came out WotC still put out a conversion guide for those wanting to port their 2e characters-games-etc. over to 3e.

No such thing provided for porting 3e to 4e that I've ever seen, nor 4e to 5e for that matter.
Credit where credit is due: WotC did put out a document about converting old characters to 5E. It was short, and fairly generic, but it was at least something. They even released a v1.01 later on, though I'm not sure what the difference(s) were.
There was one for 4e when it came out. I probably still have it in PDF on my home machine. (One of the bits I remember from it was regarding porting over a Monk (which had not yet been designed in 4e) by using the Ranger class as a base.)
I've just had a look at the 3E conversion book, for the first time in probably two decades. It's nonsense!

Eg on p 3, it says "Record the character’s existing ability scores." And on p 8, it says "If you created your character with the 2nd Edition AD&D rules and you used the optional proficiencies rule, you can use your character’s selection of nonweapon proficiencies as a shopping list for skills. Just purchase skills similar to your character’s proficiencies (a list follows)."

In many, perhaps most, cases, following these steps won't produce a character who plays anything like the AD&D character. Just as one obvious example, fighters will have significantly weaker saving throws and non-combat abilities.

A 3E character can be "converted" to 4e by recording their existing ability scores and using their existing build as a guide to their 4e build, too. Voila! A conversion guide!
 

I've just had a look at the 3E conversion book, for the first time in probably two decades. It's nonsense!

Eg on p 3, it says "Record the character’s existing ability scores." And on p 8, it says "If you created your character with the 2nd Edition AD&D rules and you used the optional proficiencies rule, you can use your character’s selection of nonweapon proficiencies as a shopping list for skills. Just purchase skills similar to your character’s proficiencies (a list follows)."

In many, perhaps most, cases, following these steps won't produce a character who plays anything like the AD&D character. Just as one obvious example, fighters will have significantly weaker saving throws and non-combat abilities.

A 3E character can be "converted" to 4e by recording their existing ability scores and using their existing build as a guide to their 4e build, too. Voila! A conversion guide!

We did use that very early in 3.0. We kinda played it like 2E.

By 2091 we were figuring out it was very different. Eg wizard xerox off ten scrolls of haste.

By 2002 we were basically part of the hivemind online.
 

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