D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[Micah Sweet]

Plenty were abandoned for one or more versions of D&D under TSR. It’s not a new phenomenon, not is it limited to WotC/Hasbro.

No, but those mechanics were not and are not wholly abandoned, so speaking generally in this way leads to imprecision. It also says nothing about the value of those rules in and of itself.

 

[Micah Sweet]

No, I’m not. All I stated was that those rules have been removed for different editions/versions of the game.

Whether their removal was an improvement or a step back is subjective.



Yes. It has neither remained exactly the same nor turned into something entirely different… so it has changed some elements, and left others the same.

...ok. this is self-evident though. What conclusion are you trying to draw? Do you have a plan of action in mind?

 

[hawkeyefan]

No, but those mechanics were not and are not wholly abandoned, so speaking generally in this way leads to imprecision. It also says nothing about the value of those rules in and of itself.

The value of the rules is subjective. It depends on how each fits or doesn’t into the larger picture, and why, and how easily they are to use. People will always differ on some of these things.

...ok. this is self-evident though. What conclusion are you trying to draw? Do you have a plan of action in mind?

It is self evident… which is why being questioned about it seemed weird.

My suggestion would be to not have open playtests. I don’t think they’re nearly as useful as many seem to. I would say the best approach would be to trust the actual designers to do their job and for them to deliver a coherent game. Just make the best game possible.

Especially now that it’s easier than ever to get prior editions, so anyone who doesn’t like the new edition can happily continue playing one of the old.

 

[Hussar]

Oh no. That ship has sailed. WotC would get pilloried if they didn’t have open playtests. There is zero chance that the fandom will allow them to make unilateral decisions about the game ever again. If they tried the accusations of all sorts of nefarious things would be a wall of screaming.

Not going to happen. Not with social media it’s not.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The value of the rules is subjective. It depends on how each fits or doesn’t into the larger picture, and why, and how easily they are to use. People will always differ on some of these things.



It is self evident… which is why being questioned about it seemed weird.

My suggestion would be to not have open playtests. I don’t think they’re nearly as useful as many seem to. I would say the best approach would be to trust the actual designers to do their job and for them to deliver a coherent game. Just make the best game possible.

Especially now that it’s easier than ever to get prior editions, so anyone who doesn’t like the new edition can happily continue playing one of the old.

I agree, but the purpose of open playtests has little to do with game design, and much more to do with avoiding public condemnation and keeping everyone buying brand merchandise.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Oh no. That ship has sailed. WotC would get pilloried if they didn’t have open playtests. There is zero chance that the fandom will allow them to make unilateral decisions about the game ever again. If they tried the accusations of all sorts of nefarious things would be a wall of screaming.

Not going to happen. Not with social media it’s not.

Yup. If you want designer decisions, you have to get away from publically-traded companies where everything depends on maximizing profit and avoiding social retaliation. And even then it's dice. That's the world we live in now.

 

[pemerton]

I have to say it's the odd edition out. I mean you yourself repeatedly point out those differences. So when people play "one thing not like the other" with editions I think it's completely valid to say it's 4e.

It's not the "odd edition out". I mean, from my point of view 3E is the "odd edition out".

4e is the full realisation of the resolution principles set out by Gygax in around pages 60 to 80 of this DMG.

 

[Thomas Shey]

My suggestion would be to not have open playtests. I don’t think they’re nearly as useful as many seem to. I would say the best approach would be to trust the actual designers to do their job and for them to deliver a coherent game. Just make the best game possible.

I am extremely cynical of designers, no matter how good, getting consistently good results without blindtesting. Almost any game designer has tunnel vision and expectations they're presenting that can end up being very different from a large part, perhaps the majority of their market.

Frankly, its better to do blindtesting and then just learn to ignore a subset with an axe to grind (but the key word here is "subset").

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's not the "odd edition out". I mean, from my point of view 3E is the "odd edition out".

4e is the full realisation of the resolution principles set out by Gygax in around pages 60 to 80 of this DMG.

Everyone has their own perspective, but none of us should expect anyone else to share it. Just be happy when they do, and gracious when they don't.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I am extremely cynical of designers, no matter how good, getting consistently good results without blindtesting. Almost any game designer has tunnel vision and expectations they're presenting that can end up being very different from a large part, perhaps the majority of their market.

Frankly, its better to do blindtesting and then just learn to ignore a subset with an axe to grind (but the key word here is "subset").

Unfortunately not realistic for a company in the position WotC has put themselves in.