D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[pemerton]

Taking physical, visible wounds and injuries? No. But causing pain? Most certainly; and a simple five-word note in the cure spells to note they also relieve pain would have solved a whole lot of these issues long before they arose.

So it takes the same amount of rest to get over the (psychosomatically-induced?) pain of imagining myself having fallen into an (illusory) pit as it does to recover from the breaks, sprains and bruises of falling into the real thing?

And this is supposed to not raise any questions of consistency or coherence?

 

[Alzrius]

What bodily harm is caused by imagining you're falling into an (illusory) pit? Or by having your ego whipped by a psionic attack?

You mean besides the fact that the book out and out says that it's physical damage? I mean, it's right there in black and white; how much more clear can you get? If you want to ignore the text, that's your prerogative, but you've lost the argument there (much like you already have with 4E).

And yes, bodily harm is caused by both, that's already been determined. At that point, the specifics of what part of your body is damaged is up to the GM, since the game doesn't feature hit locations. Likewise for how it works; the supernatural nature of the attacks translate that to physical damage, since they're magical/psionic in nature.

I mean an Ogre is walking along, the illusionist casts phantasmal force creating the illusion of a pit, the Ogre (being dimwitted) imagines that it has fallen into the pit. Are you saying its legs break? What broke them?

The ogre flung itself to the ground, since it thought it was falling. In so doing, it threw itself down hard enough that it broke its own legs. Or it can be hit points lost from a head injury, since it thought it was falling and hit the ground headfirst, flinging itself down hard enough to bash its head on a rock. Or any number of other things that work within what the text has already specified: that physical damage is taken.

So you really do envision that fighter as having all these arrows sticking out of their body, as they fight on unhampered?

"Sticking out"? Are you not familiar with the concept of a grazing wound, that leaves only a scratch?

From the PHB, p 34:

Each character has a varying number of hit points, just as monsters do. These hit points represent how much damage (actual or potential) the character can withstand before being killed. A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and/or magical factors. . . . the majority of hit points are symbolic of combat skill, luck (bestowed by supernatural powers), and magical forces. . . .​

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Rest also restores hit points, for it gives the body a chance to heal itself and regain the stamina or force which adds the skill, luck, and magical hit points.​

I don't think potential damage - ie the threat of damage averted in virtue of skill, luck and magical forces - manifests as physical wounds.

Yeah, no. This has already been covered previously in this thread; the text pays lip service to that idea, but otherwise doesn't actually do anything to actualize it in how the game operates.

And from the DMG, pp 61, 81, 111-12:

As has been detailed, hit points are not actually a measure of physical damage, by and large, as far as characters (and some other creatures as well) are concerned. Therefore, the location of hits and the type of damage caused are not germane to them. While this is not true with respect to most monsters, it is neither necessary nor particularly useful. . . . Damage scored to characters or certain monsters is actually not substantially physical - a mere nick or scratch until the last handful of hit points are considered - it is a matter of wearing away the endurance, the luck, the magical protections. With respect to most monsters such damage is, in fact, more physically substantial although as with adjustments in armor class rating for speed and agility, there are also similar additions in hit points. . . .​

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It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability in his or her class that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical damage takes place. It is preposterous to state such an assumption, for if we are to assume that a man is killed by a sword thrust which does 4 hit points of damage, we must similarly assume that a hero could, on the average, withstand five such thrusts before being slain! Why then the increase in hit points? Because these reflect both the actual physical ability of the character to withstand damage - as indicated by constitution bonuses - and a commensurate increase in such areas as skill in combat and similar life-or-death situations, the "sixth sense" which warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine protection. . . .​

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Consider a character who is a 10th level fighter with an 18 constitution. This character would have an average of 5% hit points per die, plus a constitution bonus of 4 hit points, per level, or 95 hit points! Each hit scored upon the character does only a small amount of actual physical harm - the sword thrust that would have run a 1st level fighter through the heart merely grazes the character due to the fighter's exceptional skill, luck, and sixth sense ability which caused movement to avoid the attack at just the right moment. However, having sustained 40 or 50 hit points of damage, our lordly fighter will be covered with a number of nicks, scratches, cuts and bruises. It will require a long period of rest and recuperation to regain the physical and metaphysical peak of 95 hit points. . . .​

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the accumulation of hit points and the ever-greater abilities and better saving throws of characters represents the aid supplied by supernatural forces.​

Mere nicks and scratches, at worst, and not actually a measure of physical damage.

See above. You're relitigating points that have already been settled.

I mean, Gygax described HP as folding in a lot of that sort of thing under one easy mechanical header. HP have always been an abstraction, same as "Armor Class" and even what a hit constitutes.

Though even as an abstraction, hut in a miss is a bit silly as it muddles the abstraction.

I'll note again that while Gygax described hit points as a medley of different things, at no point does the actual game treat them as different things. Where's the rule that you regain hit points from divine protection by tithing at a church? Or that you regain hit points that are luck by finding four-leaf clovers? The game is very internally consistent with the idea that hit point loss is injury, and hit point recovery is treating that injury. Damaging someone on a missed attack roll is a representation of hit points as something else (i.e. stamina) and that's why it's so obtrusive, because it's keenly intuited that it's not behaving in conjunction with every other instance of how hit points operate in the game.

 

[Parmandur]

I'll note again that while Gygax described hit points as a medley of different things, at no point does the actual game treat them as different things. Where's the rule that you regain hit points from divine protection by tithing at a church? Or that you regain hit points that are luck by finding four-leaf clovers? The game is very internally consistent with the idea that hit point loss is injury, and hit point recovery is treating that injury. Damaging someone on a missed attack roll is a representation of hit points as something else (i.e. stamina) and that's why it's so obtrusive, because it's keenly intuited that it's not behaving in conjunction with every other instance of how hit points operate in the game.

Hit dice used by just resting for a bit, or all HP coming back after a good 8 hours of sleep, suggests that it is not exactly meat.

 

[Alzrius]

Hit dice used by just resting for a bit, or all HP coming back after a good 8 hours of sleep, suggests that it is not exactly meat.

Sure, 5E is still problematic in that regard, but not nearly as much as 4E, which used the same mechanic to represent you being hit in the gut by an arrow as it used to have you recover from it by your buddy yelling at you.

 

[pemerton]

while Gygax described hit points as a medley of different things, at no point does the actual game treat them as different things.

But it does . . . because it has a dragon biting a horse for 16 hp of damage and killing it outright; but biting a champion for 16 hp of damage and the champion fighting on unhindered, and recovering to their "physical and metaphysical" peak with two or three weeks of rest (which is not sufficient time to recover from a serious sprain, which the champion in any event clearly has suffered given the absence of impairment to mobility).

 

[Hussar]

Sure, 5E is still problematic in that regard, but not nearly as much as 4E, which used the same mechanic to represent you being hit in the gut by an arrow as it used to have you recover from it by your buddy yelling at you.

What is a fighter doing when he uses “Second Wind”?

Please explain the difference.

 

[Alzrius]

What is a fighter doing when he uses “Second Wind”?

Please explain the difference.

The difference is that the people trying to defend 4E's kludging two different concepts into the same mechanic don't seem to want to talk about 4E at all.

Seriously, I just said that 5E has the same problem as 4E in that regard, it's just less egregious about it.

But it does

No, it really doesn't. Not in the way 4E does; just because the injured high-level character in AD&D recovers faster from his wounds than someone in the real world would doesn't mean that he's not recovering from his wounds (remember, verisimilitude isn't realism). The actual operation doesn't change, even if the rate at which it operates is tweaked to be more like an action tale than a reality-simulator.

 

[Hussar]

No no no.

I made my saving throw this time and will not flagellate this particular equine today thanks.

 

[James Gasik]

Taking physical, visible wounds and injuries? No. But causing pain? Most certainly; and a simple five-word note in the cure spells to note they also relieve pain would have solved a whole lot of these issues long before they arose.

Alas, even today, "pain" is not something cure spells does anything about. In fact, looking back at the game's history, I don't know that pain has ever been a thing healing magic does anything about.

 

[James Gasik]

I mean, Gygax described HP as folding in a lot of that sort of thing under one easy mechanical header. HP have always been an abstraction, same as "Armor Class" and even what a hit constitutes.

Though even as an abstraction, hut in a miss is a bit silly as it muddles the abstraction.

But save for half damage is perfectly fine, right?