D&D (2024) 2024 needs to end 2014's passive aggressive efforts to remove magic items & other elements from d&d

[CapnZapp]

Using expected Wealth for any form of mechanical balance is a failure waiting to happen.

I would rather have the magic items assigned accurately to each TIER: 0, 1−4, 5−8, 9−12, 13−16, 17−20, 21−24, 25−28



The most important goal is to give the DM an ACCURATE sense of how much gaming power a magical item is worth.

EDIT

I now see you mention "expected wealth". Read my response as if you said "specific magic item prices as mechanical balance is a failure waiting to happen". We agree the game should not go back to "expecting" any wealth, since even if the GM awards a grand total of ZERO to the players, the game remains perfectly functional.

That said, the game obviously needs to explain to the DM the internal guidelines for how much gold official scenarios will reward at different levels. A +1 magic sword could cost 10 gold or 100000 gold, the important thing is to help the DM understand at which level this sword could reasonably be expected to be sold to the heroes.

And no, it still doesn't help to just list "magic sword tier II" because you STILL need a connection between how much gold you can give to the heroes at that kind of level without making items "too" cheap. Sure you could give them 100 gp and price your item at 25 gp while another GP hands out a million gp and prices it at 250000 gold.

But official adventures can't do that. The writer needs to decide on something, and in order to not ruin internal consistence the next writer can't just pick a completely different number.

/END EDIT

I hope you realize the price in gold was that accurate sense. As long as you the GM realized only the first few digits were significant, which I trust everybody understands.

Sure you could use different numbers, and sure, whether a +1 Thingamabob costs 3700 gold or 3800 gold doesn't matter in the slightest.

But you still need a quick and easy conversion from tier or level to actual gold, since what you don't want is to have to come up with "lets see tier 5-8 means, what was it again, was it 2000 gold or 4600 gold?"

If the book tags each item with an actual gold price that is both the easiest and best.

And you can still switch it up whenever you want to. Just like nobody thinks just because a jar of mayo costs $6.29 at Kroegers it absolutely must cost $6.29 everywhere.

Since gold loot is somewhat exponential you could simply double or halve any given price without ruining balance. If the gold price in the book is 4600 gold you could reward good roleplaying and sell it for 3900 gp, or you could say the seller is especially miserly and say it costs 5500 gp.

What you don't do is sell it for 200 gold or 50000 gold.

Now then. Reducing this to a level, or worse, just a tier simply makes life hard for no benefit.

For all those time where you simply don't have the time and energy to customize the inventory, you want to just be able to hand out the books and say "you can purchase everything in the core PHB/DMG". If all the players see is "tier III" or "levels 9-12" that doesn't make your life any easier.

So we are in complete agreement a number should tell the GM all he or she needs to know.

The only thing left to discuss is why you wouldn't simply use gold asking prices. I don't see why complicating things would help.

 

[CapnZapp]

But there is a problem with this in that it affects only some classes.

A wizard can play from levels 1-20 without ever needing a single magic item.

The fighter cannot.

Yes he can.

In a game with absolutely no magic items, the spell Magic Weapon will become very valuable.


I'm speaking as a huge lover of magic items. But I also have played enough 5E its claim "magic items aren't needed in 5E" is objectively true.

Of course campaigns lose a lot of color without magic items... but they remain functional.

 

[nevin]

I do think a lot of people are looking for rules to solve people problems. What players do with wealth is a people problem. Keeping the wealth from them is a solution but not a fun one.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

Yes he can.

In a game with absolutely no magic items, the spell Magic Weapon will become very valuable.

I'm speaking as a huge lover of magic items. But I also have played enough 5E its claim "magic items aren't needed in 5E" is objectively true.

Of course campaigns lose a lot of color without magic items... but they remain functional.

What I mean is that since martials in 5e are badly designed there are swathes of design space that are simply unreachable to them without having access to magic items. I'm not just talking about damage.

You will have noticed if you have read any of the martial/caster balance discussions that a lot of people who argue that there is no problem argue that magic items fill any potential gap. While I disagree that they fill the entire gap, they are still extremely important.

Magic items are barely useful to casters in terms of something that provides utility, because casters already have nearly limitless utility, but they are essential to martials.

 

[CapnZapp]

Ok I read your whole post and you come off as a bit of an @$$hole so I think we are done. Sorry I engaged in your thread and hope you are just having a bad day.

Completely understandable. I take consolation in the thumbs up you gave my third-party observation. Do have a nice(r) day!

 

[nevin]

What I mean is that since martials in 5e are badly designed there are swathes of design space that are simply unreachable to them without having access to magic items. I'm not just talking about damage.

You will have noticed if you have read any of the martial/caster balance discussions that a lot of people who argue that there is no problem argue that magic items fill any potential gap. While I disagree that they fill the entire gap, they are still extremely important.

Magic items are barely useful to casters in terms of something that provides utility, because casters already have nearly limitless utility, but they are essential to martials.

this I completely agree with. All attunement /removal of magic items ever did was make martials weaker.

 

[CapnZapp]

What I mean is that since martials in 5e are badly designed there are swathes of design space that are simply unreachable to them without having access to magic items. I'm not just talking about damage.

You will have noticed if you have read any of the martial/caster balance discussions that a lot of people who argue that there is no problem argue that magic items fill any potential gap. While I disagree that they fill the entire gap, they are still extremely important.

Magic items are barely useful to casters in terms of something that provides utility, because casters already have nearly limitless utility, but they are essential to martials.

Okay?

So fix martials. (Good luck doing that without giving them high-powered magics, which a lot of gamers intensely dislike, but I digress)

What remains is that "I need magic items to enjoy the game" ≠ "the game makes magic items necessary".

 

[Vaalingrade]

I’m not trying to enshrine the DM as a dictator. Obviously they need to get the buy-in of the entire group. But I guess I’m just more old-school than I thought.

Someone has to create the setting and the game. That requires a certain amount of latitude.

Problem is that magic items are part of the character as much as they are the setting.

It's like how they made feats optional. It's putting other people's options in the hands of the one guy who gets to decide what all their friends get to do. It's the Alpha Friend problem of old school DM/Player dynamics.

 

[nevin]

Okay?

So fix martials. (Good luck doing that without giving them high-powered magics, which a lot of gamers intensely dislike, but I digress)

What remains is that "I need magic items to enjoy the game" ≠ "the game makes magic items necessary".

I think that's a bit snarky. when you play in a high level game with teleporting/shapeshifting/hold person wizards, it can be very hard to have fun as a martial when you don't have any tools in your toolbox to keep up. the game was built with the idea that magical items are out there for utility, power, wishes etc. Being snarky because people want that is a bit over the top.

 

[Vaalingrade]

So fix martials. (Good luck doing that without giving them high-powered magics, which a lot of gamers intensely dislike, but I digress)

Or allow characters to have abilities that aren't magic and aren't inexplicably bumped to level 9, 12 or freaking 17, or limited to once per super long short rest they're not likely going to get.