D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[Micah Sweet]

That's not the argument.

The argument is that these things come from 4e, they were a HUGE problem in 4e, but are suddenly perfectly acceptable in 5e.

1 :1 :1 movement.
Non-magical healing
non-magical limited powers
etc.

For my part, I consider all those things problem in 5e as well.

But I know you called that out, so thank you. What I was asking was: who is making the claims you are complaining about? Can you provide one example?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sure.

I'm asking about function, not descriptive text.

Like, how do I build a fighter in 5e D&D whose main contribution is to buff and heal their allies? Or a rogue whose main contribution, in combat, is battlefield control?

I thought the idea is that this is easier to do in 5e than 4e.

Well, 4e's rather bald, technical presentation has been identified as a problem.

 

[FrogReaver]

Im guessing the DNA is palatable things? For example, the hard coded roles and tactical combat is not present in 5E. Nor is there hybrid multiclassing. ADEU is interesting because its sort of still there, its just not the same structure for every class. I can only speak for myself, but the two games dont play much alike, even if they share some design points.

IMO. Nothing like 4e's ADEU is there in 5e. 4e's ADEU model placed all classes on identical power and recharge schedules. 5e doesn't. At-will and daily power were around long before 4e's ADEU - so really don't count as being a 4e contribution. Utility powers didn't make it over to 5e - instead it's much more like what came before 4e in that area. Encounter powers were a 4e thing. And while there are similarities in 5e short rest powers and 4e encounter powers, many of specifics are quite different:

• 5 mins vs 1 hour
• 4e's classes all sharing similar encounter power structure vs 5e's different classes emphasize short rests more
• The similarities of 90% of abilities in 4e's Encounter power design, (ex: 2[W] and pull vs 2[W] and push) vs 5e's design where the short rest abilities tend to be mostly unique between classes.

None of these are trivial changes. Which goes right along with what you are saying - the games play very differently - even if some abilities are at will, some recharge daily and some at a much quicker than daily rate.

 

[FrogReaver]

Sure.

I'm asking about function, not descriptive text.

Like, how do I build a fighter in 5e D&D whose main contribution is to buff and heal their allies? Or a rogue whose main contribution, in combat, is battlefield control?

I thought the idea is that this is easier to do in 5e than 4e.

Mostly take the appropriate feats/subclasses. But I don't recall fighters being able to have their main contribution being healing in 4e, or even buffing allies. Maybe they could do this stuff a little (though healing still sounds off?) - but the main fighter contribution in 4e typically stemmed from marking. The main rogue contribution in 4e was Damage.

 

[payn]

IMO. Nothing like 4e's ADEU is there in 5e. 4e's ADEU model placed all classes on identical power and recharge schedules. 5e doesn't. At-will and daily power were around long before 4e's ADEU - so really don't count as being a 4e contribution. Utility powers didn't make it over to 5e - instead it's much more like what came before 4e in that area. Encounter powers were a 4e thing. And while there are similarities in 5e short rest powers and 4e encounter powers, many of specifics are quite different:

• 5 mins vs 1 hour
• 4e's classes all sharing similar encounter power structure vs 5e's different classes emphasize short rests more
• The similarities of 90% of abilities in 4e's Encounter power design, (ex: 2[W] and pull vs 2[W] and push) vs 5e's design where the short rest abilities tend to be mostly unique between classes.

None of these are trivial changes. Which goes right along with what you are saying - the games play very differently - even if some abilities are at will, some recharge daily and some at a much quicker than daily rate.

Right, this is exactly why I say 5E isnt that much like 4E as some do. I say ADEU "kind of" because there are short rest mechanics that are like encounter powers, but it certainly isnt a copy.

 

[Hussar]

For my part, I consider all those things problem in 5e as well.

But I know you called that out, so thank you. What I was asking was: who is making the claims you are complaining about? Can you provide one example?

Sorry. Not quite following. These things were huge problems in 4e. If you want examples simply search the boards for posts between 2007-2010.

I can’t really provide posts for things people are no longer complaining about since, well, they aren’t complaining.

To be fair, someone else (sorry forgot who) has made a couple of posts claiming that thee things are still being strongly contested but I’ll admit to not knowing where they are being contested. You’d have to ask them.

 

[FrogReaver]

228

Sorry. Not quite following. These things were huge problems in 4e. If you want examples simply search the boards for posts between 2007-2010.

I can’t really provide posts for things people are no longer complaining about since, well, they aren’t complaining.

To be fair, someone else (sorry forgot who) has made a couple of posts claiming that thee things are still being strongly contested but I’ll admit to not knowing where they are being contested. You’d have to ask them.

Wait a minute... You are talking about claims from 13+ years ago?

 

[Hussar]

Well, 4e's rather bald, technical presentation has been identified as a problem.

But no it isn’t though. When I said that the problem was in the presentation I got yelled at for denying people’s opinions.

 

[FrogReaver]

But no it isn’t though. When I said that the problem was in the presentation I got yelled at for denying people’s opinions.

'the problem' vs 'a problem'... i think i see this problem.

 

[FrogReaver]

Right, this is exactly why I say 5E isnt that much like 4E as some do. I say ADEU "kind of" because there are short rest mechanics that are like encounter powers, but it certainly isnt a copy.

Exactly. Also worth noting, most of the 4e ADEU structure was taken from 3e - though it certainly isn't a copy. The only unique component for 4e was the E. In almost every way 5e's ability recovery structure is more like 3e's than it is like 4e's.