D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

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Wait a minute... You are talking about claims from 13+ years ago?

I’m not quite sure what you are asking.

So let me clarify.

There are a number of elements that were problematic in 4e.

Some of those elements appear in 5e but are no longer problematic.

My question has always been why? Why is it okay to have fighters shout their arm back on but totally unacceptable for the same thing in 4e? Why was it totally unacceptable to remove crafting skills in 4e but totally acceptable in 5e to do the same thing? Why was changing movement rules in 4e a huge problem but something that gets ignored in 5e?

On and on.

And the reason that makes most sense in my mind is that instead of presenting all these changes at once as they did in 4e, by compartmentalising through the playtests, slow drip rules additions and making sure that any changes are VERY well sign posted long in advance, most of these things have become part of 5e without triggering anyone’s one straw too many reactions.
 

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I’m not quite sure what you are asking.

So let me clarify.

There are a number of elements that were problematic in 4e.

Some of those elements appear in 5e but are no longer problematic.

My question has always been why? Why is it okay to have fighters shout their arm back on but totally unacceptable for the same thing in 4e? Why was it totally unacceptable to remove crafting skills in 4e but totally acceptable in 5e to do the same thing? Why was changing movement rules in 4e a huge problem but something that gets ignored in 5e?

On and on.

And the reason that makes most sense in my mind is that instead of presenting all these changes at once as they did in 4e, by compartmentalising through the playtests, slow drip rules additions and making sure that any changes are VERY well sign posted long in advance, most of these things have become part of 5e without triggering anyone’s one straw too many reactions.
These things also seem like minor quibbles folks had with 4E compared to other changes. I dont remember anyone saying 4E was bad because it changed diagonal movement. Maybe I dont remember that one during the E war?
 

I’m not quite sure what you are asking.
Just confirming that the claims you are referencing are from 13+ years ago, instead of anything recent on the topic.

IMO. 13+ years ago there were alot of people on both sides that said alot of crap.

It mostly seems like you are making a composite of people then and people now when it’s not the same people saying the same stuff, and even if it were - in 13+ years their opinions very well could have changed.


So let me clarify.


There are a number of elements that were problematic in 4e.

Some of those elements appear in 5e but are no longer problematic.
Says who?

My question has always been why? Why is it okay to have fighters shout their arm back on but totally unacceptable for the same thing in 4e?
1. No one said it was
2. Second wind is really minor compared to how often and how in your face warlord shout healing was in 4e. Acquiescence is not acceptance.

*I don’t have a problem with shout healing but I understand why someone might.

Why was it totally unacceptable to remove crafting skills in 4e but totally acceptable in 5e to do the same thing?
Don’t know. I never ever recall that discussion. I’m sure it happened somewhere, but nothing I noticed at the time and I was fairly active on the forums.

Why was changing movement rules in 4e a huge problem but something that gets ignored in 5e?
Not 100% sure what you mean here? Maybe something adjacent to the square fireball complaint? If so I’d note that fireballs are no longer square.

On and on.

And the reason that makes most sense in my mind is that instead of presenting all these changes at once as they did in 4e, by compartmentalising through the playtests, slow drip rules additions and making sure that any changes are VERY well sign posted long in advance, most of these things have become part of 5e without triggering anyone’s one straw too many reactions.
An alternate theory - maybe 5e just has less straws than 4e did. Like even if you point to an effect that exists in both games, it’s possible 4e got more pushback simply because it had more instances of that straw than 5e, whether in the rules, rules interactions and/or actual play.
 



Mostly take the appropriate feats/subclasses. But I don't recall fighters being able to have their main contribution being healing in 4e, or even buffing allies. Maybe they could do this stuff a little (though healing still sounds off?) - but the main fighter contribution in 4e typically stemmed from marking. The main rogue contribution in 4e was Damage.
Upthread there was a suggestion that 5e D&D does not have hard-coded roles for PCs. I'm curious about where the functional contrast lies.

In 4e I can build a "fighter" whose main role is healing and buffing allies - it's called a Warlord, but in 5e terms is a fighter (STR-based, weapon-and-armour user).

And a thief with battlefield control would use (say) Positioning Strike, Blinding Barrage, Bait and Switch, Walking Wounded, Sand in the Eyes, Knockout, etc.
 

As I said,
You are assuming that any explanation has to be inherent to the character, and thus that the way things unfold in the fiction is caused by that inherent property of the character.

That additional constraint is not necessary for coherent and verisimilitudinous RPGing.
Again, I don't know about "necessary," since within the context of imaginative play I'm not sure that anything (besides having an imagination) is truly necessary per se, but having a verisimilitudinous RPG that doesn't convey an in-character presentation for the game's operations with regard to characters' abilities/actions strikes me as a game that is at best offloading (at least part of) the work it should be doing onto the people playing it, if not actively hindering them. Saying "but I've done it before" doesn't really change that; as has been recognized for some time in the RPG space, saying that something's not a problem because you can fix it is an inherent admission that it's a problem.
 

Regarding roles, I always thought that classes in other edition had one, the only difference is that 4e decided to be transparent about it. I never thought the idea behind them was to make it more gamist, but simply a tool to help players pick and understand the class they're about to play and help make a balanced party if that's what you want to do. Players wanting to cover each role when building their party is no more different than the classic ''We need a cleric'' or ''we need a thief'' in other editions. It's encouraged, but not necessary, I mastered a couple of 4e campaign where not every role were covered and it still went smoothly, the party just changed their approach accordingly, just like in other editions.

So, while I understand that some players don't like things to be spelled out in a way that reminds them that they are playing a game, for me, class roles is a feature and something I would personally like to see come back. It helps to understand how a class will play (especially combined with power source) without the need to look through all the powers and abilities, what he's meant to do to help the party in a fight. For new players, especially in a game with over 24 classes, it's a great tool! You want to play a ranger? well, know that the class is considered a striker, so you should do a lot of damage in combat, move a lot, but have poor defense and/or health so you gotta be careful, position will be important. You want to play an Invoker? as a controller, while in combat, you should have a lot of powers that do area damage and/or debuff the enemy, so it will be about zone control. You would like to be the kind of character that protect your allies in combat and is not afraid to go in the front line? That sounds like the role of a defender, so let's see what classes are considered defenders... you have the fighter, the swordmage, the paladin, the warden, the battlemind... let's dive in those classes to learn a little bit more about them and see what would fit what you have in mind...
 

Upthread there was a suggestion that 5e D&D does not have hard-coded roles for PCs. I'm curious about where the functional contrast lies.

In 4e I can build a "fighter" whose main role is healing and buffing allies - it's called a Warlord, but in 5e terms is a fighter (STR-based, weapon-and-armour user).

And a thief with battlefield control would use (say) Positioning Strike, Blinding Barrage, Bait and Switch, Walking Wounded, Sand in the Eyes, Knockout, etc.

You say:
‘Hard coded roles for PC’, but that doesn’t equal class.

“fighter” but that really equals concept of martial that doesn’t cast spells to fight and doesn’t equal class in this context.

——
Except the argument you are countering was that 5e PCs don’t have hard coded roles based on their class. A 4e Warlord that you just mentioned is a class, it’s not the 4e Fighter class, and both of those have hard coded roles in 4e. 4e Fighters (the class) didn’t have the ability to specialize in healing others - not ‘fighter’ the generic concept.

Being so loosey goosey with the language actually undermines your point.
 
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