D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[Red Castle]

Though martials did have ways to target other defenses. There are even Feats to allow basic attacks to target them; a friend of mine had a Charge!Slayer who exclusively targets Reflex (even if sometimes the Reflex defense is higher than the AC of the target, lol).

That’s why I said ‘usually target AC’, but I didn’t feel the need to go into these kind of details since I found them irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Clint_L]

Now we have 5e, which at every turn, tries not to make definitive statements about anything, and attempts to please the widest possible audience, sometimes to it's detriment. But hey, at least it's popular, right?

What I greatly prefer about the 5e approach is that it tends to skew towards the original design philosophy for D&D, which saw incompleteness as a virtue. Gygax made no bones about this: D&D (and even AD&D, though he was inconsistent about the latter) was what the players, and primarily the DMs, made of it. Whereas 4e is much more constrained.

To use an analogy, to me, 5e feels like a really big box of random lego. I can buy lego kits (adventures) to help me make things, or I can just have at it. 4e felt like one of those kits where you are really expected to follow the directions.

Which makes sense, because it was inspired by the design space of computer-based RPGs, which are necessarily limited in scope.

 

[payn]

What I greatly prefer about the 5e approach is that it tends to skew towards the original design philosophy for D&D, which saw incompleteness as a virtue. Gygax made no bones about this: D&D (and even AD&D, though he was inconsistent about the latter) was what the players, and primarily the DMs, made of it. Whereas 4e is much more constrained.

To use an analogy, to me, 5e feels like a really big box of random lego. I can buy lego kits (adventures) to help me make things, or I can just have at it. 4e felt like one of those kits where you are really expected to follow the directions.

I agree with this.

Which makes sense, because it was inspired by the design space of computer-based RPGs, which are necessarily limited in scope.

Not so much this. I think the tactical combat and role coding seems similar to CRPG design, but 4E is still very much a TTRPG.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

What I greatly prefer about the 5e approach is that it tends to skew towards the original design philosophy for D&D, which saw incompleteness as a virtue. Gygax made no bones about this: D&D (and even AD&D, though he was inconsistent about the latter) was what the players, and primarily the DMs, made of it. Whereas 4e is much more constrained.

To use an analogy, to me, 5e feels like a really big box of random lego. I can buy lego kits (adventures) to help me make things, or I can just have at it. 4e felt like one of those kits where you are really expected to follow the directions.

Which makes sense, because it was inspired by the design space of computer-based RPGs, which are necessarily limited in scope.

The problem is really that 5E's design is inconsistent. 5E is extremely fuzzy about everything except spells, so if you play a character who relies heavily on spellcasting then you know exactly what you will get, but if you play any class that does not have access to magic, then your experience will be heavily reliant on your GM. I would be a lot happier with 5E if it stuck to the idea of simplicity more consistently.

 

[payn]

The problem is really that 5E's design is inconsistent. 5E is extremely fuzzy about everything except spells, so if you play a character who relies heavily on spellcasting then you know exactly what you will get, but if you play any class that does not have access to magic, then your experience will be heavily reliant on your GM. I would be a lot happier with 5E if it stuck to the idea of simplicity more consistently.

This is the other side of the closed design. Rulings over rules feels either free or undefined based on perspective. For me it’s freeing because you either need a rule for ever occasion, or a universal mechanic which is too widely applied.

 

[Thomas Shey]

This is the other side of the closed design. Rulings over rules feels either free or undefined based on perspective. For me it’s freeing because you either need a rule for ever occasion, or a universal mechanic which is too widely applied.

I think their point is, if that's okay for everything else, why not spells? Why are spells closed when everything else is defined-by-GM in how it plays out? It suggests a certain lack of courage of one's own design decisions.

 

[Zardnaar]

4E was designed to sell minis to a non existing hypothetical fan base to push those minis around a battlemat.

That's its biggest problem right there.

 

[pemerton]

Again, this clearly a case of people not liking the 4e rules, not people not understanding them. If you're being asked to do anything here, it's to accept that.

I was responding to this post:

the other built-in assumption here that I fundamentally dislike (one that 4e shares with 3e and 5e) is that the spell is always going to go exactly where the caster wants it to go.

Exactly the same assumption applies in D&D, AD&D and B/X. As @James Gasik posted, it is actually 3E &D that has rules for targetting a fireball, though these pertain to a narrow opening rather than getting the exact burst point one desires.

 

[Umbran]

The question as I see it is: can we accept the feelings of those who view 4e in a personally negative light, even if we do not hold that view?

Mod Note:

This is several pages back now, but, it calls for a moderator comment:

If you (generic, not Micah personally) are not willing to accept the feelings of others on some level, even if you don't agree... then you are probably on the wrong message boards.

 

[payn]

I think their point is, if that's okay for everything else, why not spells? Why are spells closed when everything else is defined-by-GM in how it plays out? It suggests a certain lack of courage of one's own design decisions.

Magic has limits to bind its ability so having that structure in place helps. Yes, I am aware the ceiling is ever expanding as the game levels.