D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[Red Castle]

All of this applies to 3e as well.

I have no doubt, I just looked in the intro of the 3.5 DMG for fun and they do say, right in the first page:

''The D&D game assumes the use of miniature figures, and the rules are written from that perspective. This book contains a battlegrid and other tools to help you visualize the action.''

But, although my experience with 3.5 is limited (I was burned out of DnD back then and played other TTRPG instead), I do believe that it was easier to play Theater of the Mind with it, so maybe players felt less that miniatures were required? Honestly, just guessing here.

 

[soviet]

I have no doubt, I just looked in the intro of the 3.5 DMG for fun and they do say, right in the first page:

''The D&D game assumes the use of miniature figures, and the rules are written from that perspective. This book contains a battlegrid and other tools to help you visualize the action.''

But, although my experience with 3.5 is limited (I was burned out of DnD back then and played other TTRPG instead), I do believe that it was easier to play Theater of the Mind with it, so maybe players felt less that miniatures were required? Honestly, just guessing here.

It was slightly easier. Like one notch out of ten less. But as with many things about 4e, that one extra notch of difference was seen (incorrectly) as representing a paradigm or category shift.

 

[Queer Venger]

Would you mind directing us to this video?

Its rather long, but really covers this topic and the upcoming 2024 rules revisions pretty comprehensively:

 

[Zardnaar]

I have no doubt, I just looked in the intro of the 3.5 DMG for fun and they do say, right in the first page:

''The D&D game assumes the use of miniature figures, and the rules are written from that perspective. This book contains a battlegrid and other tools to help you visualize the action.''

But, although my experience with 3.5 is limited (I was burned out of DnD back then and played other TTRPG instead), I do believe that it was easier to play Theater of the Mind with it, so maybe players felt less that miniatures were required? Honestly, just guessing here.

Not sure if 3.0 has it.

Right at the start of 3.5 they launched that minis game. Was kind of fun.

4E felt alot like an advanced version of that game.

I would steal a couple of ideas from D&D minis for my own clone tbh.

 

[Red Castle]

Not sure if 3.0 has it.

Right at the start of 3.5 they launched that minis game. Was kind of fun.

4E felt alot like an advanced version of that game.

I would steal a couple of ideas from D&D minis for my own clone tbh.

No I’ve checked.

They mention miniatures and grid as something that can be considered and improves the game, but in no way is it worded as highly recommended like in 3.5 and 4.

Like you said, DnD miniatures launched in 2003, after the release of 3e. Since they had no in house miniatures to sell, it’s easy to understand that they had no reason to highly recommend the use of miniatures.

I played a lot of Axis Allies Miniatures back in the days but never DnD Miniatures so I don’t know how fun it was… I remember that it was a time when collectible miniature games were everywhere! Axis&Allies, Star Wars, DnD, War at Sea… I want to say heroclix started then, but not so sure…

 

[Irlo]

I didn't have much opportunity to play 4E, probably fewer than 30 hours of game time at the table. Most of us, including the DM, were new to the system and we didn't quite hit our stride. None of us had a grasp on how skill challenges were supposed to work, and I wasn't sold on the stregnths of the rule set.

Reading this thread, my interest in rekindled. Especially this bit:

And of course they also found 4e very visceral - far more than AD&D - in the sense that it is a game where in combat with dragons you suffer ongoing burning damage, in combat with giants you get knocked about or knocked over, when someone clocks you over the head you might be stunned or dazed, when fighting a skill fighter with his polearm opponents find themselves wrongfooted and out-of-position and getting beaten down every time they try and do something, etc - all which seem highly verisimilitudinous in a way quite different from other versions of D&D.

I would love to play again. Unfortunately, that seems extremely unlikely.

 

[cavalier973]

MCDM has a great video covering this very topic; I found it very informative.

I wait semi-patiently for his “Making a Fighter in 4e” video

 

[MockingBird]

I played a lot of Axis Allies Miniatures back in the days but never DnD Miniatures so I don’t know how fun it was… I remember that it was a time when collectible miniature games were everywhere! Axis&Allies, Star Wars, DnD, War at Sea… I want to say heroclix started then, but not so sure…

I got heavy into A&A minis. I still have my collection and my collection of War at Sea. I just couldn't push myself to sell any of it. War at Sea was especially fun. I do kind of wish I'd gotten into the D&D minis though. Then I I would have a nice collection of monsters by now. But yeah to your point, I remember BAM having a lot of collectable minis boosters at this time. Now they don't carry them anymore.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It was slightly easier. Like one notch out of ten less. But as with many things about 4e, that one extra notch of difference was seen (incorrectly) as representing a paradigm or category shift.

I disagree. I played 3e and 3.5 for many years, almost all of it TotM, and don't recall it being barely easier than 4e to do so once I had a chance to compare the two.

 

[Voadam]

I believe it was easier to do a lot of 3.5 TotM than it was in 4e. 3e most movement was closing, then either plant or five foot steps to avoid AoOs and get off full attacks. The complications of a typical board would generally only be an issue with something like a monk or rogue tumbling past a front line to get the backliners or set up a flank, then the possible five foot steps to avoid flanks could be a bit difficult to track.

People can run around drawing AoOs and there are suboptimal things like trying to push an opponent in 3.5, but mostly you close then plant with a little wiggle room for five foot stepping or not which is fairly straightforward for TotM.

In 4e there are a lot of movement powers, both for moving yourself without AoOs and moving your opponent. A couple roles for PC classes and monsters (strikers and skirmishers) have mobility as part of their concept. This means movement on the grid is more complicated.

4e also encouraged making terrain features matter more in combat so exact positioning was a little more important.

4e had a lot of conditions such as marks where exact positioning and distance mattered.

4e also gave martials more area attacks like hitting every square around you. 3.5 had a feat chain to eventually whirlwind attack to do so, but 4e gave it generally from level 1 and sometimes as an at will.