D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

I think it would be interesting to find out what drove this design process in more detail. For example, we all know that WoTC looked extensively at what players wanted when designing 3e, and we are all familiar with the playtests and consensus model used for 5e. Neither of which is likely to produce cutting-edge or innovative design, but it likely to lead to safe, boring, and commercially successful decisions.
My perception was they looked at the very top of hard core D&D gamers. The types that were vocal on forums and bought all the supplements. The types that absolutely love saying "4E fixed D&D". I think the (overconfident) hope was designing a great game for those folks would result in trickle down adoption at large. As I mentioned before, it probably would have worked if not for OGL and the goodwill Paizo had banked.
 

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I think @Hussar has a good take on this. A lot of it is in the presentation. I think the launch was inelegant and WotC did nothing to help folks move into 4E. In fact, it seemed like they did quite a bit to shell shock folks.
We've talked about the several factors which added up to a flawed sales pitch and a less receptive audience. Including edition/book churn fatigue. Launching a whole new edition after players were already drowning in books from 3rd and 3.5, having had an unusually short edition turnover between those two editions and then another short few years to 4th (2000, 2003, 2008, compared with 10 years between 1E and 2E, and 11 years between 2E and 3E). As Snarf and others have talked about earlier, the 2E to 3E transition in particular was welcome because AD&D was moribund, so that new edition, despite being arguably an equally radical revamp, was viewed as a new lease on life for D&D.

Which brings us back to the OP, and the point of this thread. 4e was the fastest edition to be abandoned. As I've noted previously, it was already dead within Hasbro prior to the release of Essentials ... which means that it was dead within two years of its release. We don't know the exact trend lines, but I would suspect, based on that information, that the trend lines were not good; that a number of people that originally purchased 4e chose not to continue playing it. Obviously, while this is trivially true (there are some number of people for whom this is true), without knowing the actual numbers, we can't know how much of a factor this was.
Ja. And/or that folks who WERE playing it weren't continuing to buy books, just using their Insider/Character Builder subscriptions to enable play, with maybe the DM & other similarly enthusiastic players with sufficient disposable income continuing to bother buying actual books.

Re: the "fastest edition to be abandoned", depending on how we define that, I might quibble that 3rd was about the same or even shorter. Given that 3.5 relaunched the entire D&D line in three years rather than the six between 4e and 5e. Although insiders like Rick Marshall have explained that 3.5 was expected/planned to be a thing even before 3rd was released, they've confirmed that it was a significantly more extensive revamp than originally envisioned. Rather than a minor update it wound up being on the scale of the OD&D + supplements to 1E, or 1E to 2E edition changes. Even more extensive in some ways.

I would say it's more like ordering fries expecting Standard Cut and getting Steak Cut instead. 4e was still DnD. Every edition makes change. 3e moved away from thaco and made major change to how multiclass works, but it was still very much DnD.

I fully understand that 4e made changes that a lot of players hated, or thought that they were too much, but at the end of the day, it was very much still DnD, just like any edition before it (or after). It has a lot more in common with prior edition than it has opposite.

PS I know you were expending on Justice metaphor so I don't think you believe 4e was not DnD.
Yes, I think some of this is perspective, too. As folks have discussed, just the name D&D has some legacy expectations, and for a player who plays only or primarily D&D, the differences are magnified. For folks who play multiple different RPGs, the similarities loom larger.

I suspect that Hasbro corporate factors were indeed a significant factor in HOW different 4E is. The Core Brands funding directive pushing WotC to try to do something radical and ambitious with the new edition and tap into recurring subscription sales and tie it to a VTT. The desire to escape from the OGL and impose the more restrictive GSL so they could recapture the supplementary publishing the third party market was doing, or make more money off it by licensing.

Ironically, the missteps made in pursuit of Hasbro's profit and control targets/goals seem to have sabotaged the edition's commercial success. Though they seem to have pushed it into being a more ambitious design and more interesting game than it otherwise would or could have been.
 

My perception was they looked at the very top of hard core D&D gamers. The types that were vocal on forums and bought all the supplements. The types that absolutely love saying "4E fixed D&D". I think the (overconfident) hope was designing a great game for those folks would result in trickle down adoption at large. As I mentioned before, it probably would have worked if not for OGL and the goodwill Paizo had banked.
I can honestly say I skipped 3e (was burned out of DnD at the end of the 90s) and I got back to DnD with 4e when the PH2 was already released. So I can't say I followed the OGL story back then.

But I can't help but wonder, what would have happened if WotC didn't play with the OGL back then, would Paizo would have move on to 4e with his 3PP content or would he still have created Pathfinder? And if there was no Pathfinder to allow 3.5 players to continue with their edition, was there another company in a good enough position to create a game to continue 3.5? Or was it Pathfinder or nothing?
 

Ja. And/or that folks who WERE playing it weren't continuing to buy books, just using their Insider/Character Builder subscriptions to enable play, with maybe the DM & other similarly enthusiastic players with sufficient disposable income continuing to bother buying actual books.
I played Scales of War all the way through, and I did buy the PH/DMG/MM, but I'll admit, that's only because I found them at Border's Books (before they went under) in a slipcase for 40% off with coupon. I'm pretty sure the rest of my party just used Insider.
 

I played Scales of War all the way through, and I did buy the PH/DMG/MM, but I'll admit, that's only because I found them at Border's Books (before they went under) in a slipcase for 40% off with coupon. I'm pretty sure the rest of my party just used Insider.
I'd say at least half of the players in my regular groups did the same. Or only bought one or two supplemental books for classes they particularly liked. 3.5 was where I finally stopped being able to keep up with all the hardcovers, and I got most of them for 4E but couldn't bring myself to get ALL of them.
 

My perception was they looked at the very top of hard core D&D gamers. The types that were vocal on forums and bought all the supplements. The types that absolutely love saying "4E fixed D&D". I think the (overconfident) hope was designing a great game for those folks would result in trickle down adoption at large. As I mentioned before, it probably would have worked if not for OGL and the goodwill Paizo had banked.

That's a good working theory, but I'm not sure that I agree. I think that while they might have looked at a subset of "hardcore gamers," the problem was they thought of this as a design issue, and approached everything in terms of design without considering what people actually wanted to do.

It's like the gnome theory, writ large. They were so confident that it was better, that they didn't understand that there were people that didn't want to play that way. And that's why we see the constant refrain of, "You're holding it wrong," when it comes to 4e. Yes, if you play the way that 4e was intended to be played, it is a great and well-designed game. But if you didn't and don't want to, to quote Soviet ... you deserved your fate.

Which is not how you maintain market dominance.
 


I think its overly blithe to assume that conflicts in choice of game system can't cause a group to break up. So I'd say that depends on your definition of "fault" here.
Its an interesting logic puzzle because saying its not the games fault makes it sound like the player is at fault for not wanting to play a game they dont like. It's not the games fault inherently anymore than it is the players but the environment in which they all coexist.
 

Its an interesting logic puzzle because saying its not the games fault makes it sound like the player is at fault for not wanting to play a game they dont like. It's not the games fault inherently anymore than it is the players but the environment in which they all coexist.

I suspect what Hawkeyefan meant was that it was a consequence of the group having differences in what they wanted that were stark rather than the system, per se, but I think a system that lays that sort of thing bare is still a contributor to my mind.
 

A part of my problem with CaGI is that I really don’t have this as a recognized move in the movie fights that I’ve seen. Sure, there are lots of big mook rushes. None of them fit CaGI for me.
My mind goes to bunches of martial arts movies that live in my subconscious, but possibly one of the best examples is in Police Academy 2.


Winslow 100% pulls the opponents from targeting someone else and they both come in at the same time and get hit.
 

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