D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[ECMO3]

That if there is doing an awful lot of lifting for the sentence proceeding it. So much so that said if-statement disqualifies everything you wrote following it because the PC you are now talking about is one the player has decided not to optimize.

No it doesn't. Your post asked specifically about "top tier build". Any build with GWM is not a "top tier build". Making use of this feat requires an ineffective build to start with or a compromise that would have made the character better.

If you had asked about builds in general, or if you had just not mentioned "top tier builds" my answer would have been different, but you specifically asked about top tier builds solely; so I only provided two examples that would be used for top tier builds.

 

[Maxperson]

Even if true they still aren't strong enough to be the worlds best gymnasts.

Big muscles does not equal strength and world record gymnasts are far stronger than bodybuilders.

This is a false statement, because if true then the weight lifting records would be set by people who look like this...

...lifting 1200 pounds. Are you really trying tell me that the guy above can lift more than 1000 pounds?

 

[ECMO3]

This is a false statement, because if true then the weight lifting records would be set by people who look like this.....
.....lifting 1200 pounds. Are you really trying tell me that the guy above can lift more than 1000 pounds?

I am not telling you he can lift 1200 lbs. I am telling you he is stronger than the people who can lift 1200 lbs.

Being a gymnast generally requires more strength than being a weight lifter.

Being a Weightlifter requires strength in a few muscles based on what event you are talking about, but the rest of their body and their overall strength is going to be weaker than an Olympic Gymnast.

IMO the only Olympic Athletes that are in the same ballpark as gymnasts when it comes to strength are those that compete in the Decathalon.

 

[Maxperson]

I am not telling you he can lift 1200 lbs. I am telling you he is stronger than the people who can lift 1200 lbs.

Then he can lift 1500 pounds? Because that's strength. Google the strongest man in the world. You won't see a gymnast pop up. Look at the world's strongest man contests. No gymnasts there, either.

Being a gymnast generally requires more strength than being a weight lifter.

Endurance is not strength. Being in shape is not strength.....at least not to the degree of the body builder. The gymnast needs to be in shape, and be stronger than the average person, but the gymnast is nowhere near as strong as any of the professional body builders.

Being a Weightlifter requires strength in a few muscles based on what event you are talking about, but the rest of their body and their overall strength is going to be weaker than a Gymnasts.

Doesn't matter. The gymnast uses those extra muscles for balance and agility, and for endurance. Not for strength, at least not to the degree of a body builder. The ones the body builder uses are for strength.

The only Olympic Athletes that are in the same ballpark as gymnasts in my opinion are those that compete in the Decathalon.

Your opinion runs contrary to world opinion and accepted definitions of strength.

Now, I agree with you that what a gymnast does is amazing, and they are very strong relative to the average person, but they are not stronger than body builders.

 

[ECMO3]

Then he can lift 1500 pounds? Because that's strength. Google the strongest man in the world. You won't see a gymnast pop up. Look at the world's strongest man contests. No gymnasts there, either.

No to be completely clear. He can't liftg 1200 pounds but he is stronger than the guy who can.

I don't know why you are having difficulty understanding this. A weightlifter can't do an Iron cross and hold up 200 lbs.

Endurance is not strength. Being in shape is not strength.....at least not to the degree of the body builder. The gymnast needs to be in shape, and be stronger than the average person, but the gymnast is nowhere near as strong as any of the professional body builders.

A gymnast is in probably in better shape, although that has a lot of variables but he is definitely stronger.

Your opinion runs contrary to world opinion and accepted definitions of strength.

No it doesn't. Yours does.

Here is the definition of strength from Miriam-Webster. Nothing at all in there about having big muscles or lifting weight.

Strength:
1) The quality or state of being strong : capacity for exertion or endurance.

I will note the definition actually does mention endurance.

Now, I agree with you that what a gymnast does is amazing, and they are very strong relative to the average person, but they are not stronger than body builders.

They are absolutely stronger than body builders. Look at the "accepted definition" I gave you above.

 

[Maxperson]

No to be completely clear. He can't liftg 1200 pounds but he is stronger than the guy who can.

I don't know why you are having difficulty understanding this.

Because it's false. The weightlifter is far stronger. He builds the muscles used for strength. The gymnast builds the muscles used for agility, explosiveness, and endurance. Different muscles for different uses.

No it doesn't. Yours does.

Here is the definition of strength from Miriam-Webster. Nothing at all in there about having big muscles.

Strength:
1) The quality or state of being strong : capacity for exertion or endurance.

I will note the definition actually mentions endurance, but does not mention weights.

Do some research. Find out who the strongest people in the world are. Find out who enters and wins the strength contests. It's not the agility folks.

 

[ECMO3]

Because it's false. The weightlifter is far stronger. He builds the muscles used for strength. The gymnast builds the muscles used for agility, explosiveness, and endurance. Different muscles for different uses.

No he is weaker and a Weightlifter can't do an Iron Cross and hold up 200 lbs.

Weightlifters are good at lifting weights, they build muscles for lifting weights in competition. They do not build for strength.

Bodybuilders build muscle mass. Again they are not concerned about strength. Bodybuilding is mostly about aesthetics.

They are both undoubtedly strong, but they are not as strong as gymnasts or as strong as some other athletes for that matter.

Do some research. Find out who the strongest people in the world are. Find out who enters and wins the strength contests. It's not the agility folks.

I posted the definition for you above. What else do you want?

 

[Maxperson]

No he is weaker and a Weightlifter can't do an Iron Cross and hold up 200 lbs.

Weightlifters are good at lifting weights, they build muscles for lifting weights in competition. They do not build for strength.

Bodybuilders build muscle mass. Again they are not concerned about strength. Bodybuilding is mostly about aesthetics.

They are both undoubtedly strong, but they are not as strong as gymnasts or as strong as some other athletes for that matter.

I mean, if you're arguing that the strongest man in the world isn't the strongest man in the world, it's hard to take your statement seriously.

I posted the definition for you above. What else do you want?

If the definition doesn't match how the world uses the word, the definition is wrong and needs to change.

 

[James Gasik]

You must play games where there is little variety among PCs.

My 16 Strength Kender Knight of the Sword Conquest Paladin, in Shadow of the Dragon Queen was freaking awesome. She was the best melee character in the party.



RAW they can use 2 handed weapons fine, they just can't use heavy weapons effectively.

In melee a small character can do 1d12 + strength using a lance with 2 hands which is only half a point difference from the highest damage weapon available, and it has reach to boot. Such a character will need another weapon to effectively attack close enemies though, and the highest damage available for that is a Longsword or Warhammer.

Strength builds are just weaker than dex builds, but when it comes to Strength I would put a Goblin Battlemaster with a Lance and Menacing attack against any other strength-based martial that doesn't have spells.

I never noticed that the Lance isn't a Heavy weapon. Thanks, you just gave me a great idea for my next character!

The disadvantage to attack someone within 5' of you might be a problem. Would you suggest Mobility for such a character? Or maybe Goblin for Nimble Escape?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

why?
because someone does not want to rework a premade adventure even a little?
it's not a lot of work.

You clearly missed my point.

sure, to each it's own.

I still remember the DMs face from recent campaign where we got 3 or 4 custom items, really expensive items, that were not exactly perfect fit for our group.

we sold the lot of it and bought bunch of +1 generic trash to improve a little bit.

Guy lost his will for D&D in that instant.

Yeah. Understandable.