D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[Maxperson]

if a blade or crossbow in the hands of an adventurer can find a soft place to peirce the hide of a dragon why can't it find that place in the hands of a soldier? an assault from the soldiers has more attacks to potentially find a soft place to hit and more targets to surround and distract.

Level matters, or did in 1e. But again, Protection from Normal missiles ended that cold. In 2e any dragon of old or older was simply immune to normal missiles. 3e used magic weapons as the benchmark to hurt the older dragons.

Put a magic bow in the hands of a soldier and he might get lucky and hurt the dragon. You aren't going to see very many town militias all armed with magic weapons, though.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Why? The dragon would just ignore the 100 that couldn't do anything. They'd be there to die and/or run away.

A crit from a crossbow is a crit from a crossbow. 100 soldiers will deal 10d10 damage on average per round if they don't have disadvantage.

 

[Maxperson]

A crit from a crossbow is a crit from a crossbow. 100 soldiers will deal 10d10 damage on average per round if they don't have disadvantage.

You can't crit if you need a 20 to hit. And you can't deal damage if you can't deal damage. A crit from those soldiers does the same 0 damage to the 1e(when they cast the protection from normal missiles spell), 2e and 3e dragons of the size/age to be threats to towns as the 0 damage from adventurers using normal ranged weapons. I don't know about 4e, but 5e needs to allow dragons to be similarly immune to common weaponry.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

In 1e that ancient/old red dragon had a very good chance of being able to use magic, and protection from normal missiles = dead town. Dragon fear also automatically affected anyone with less than 1 hit die, which common militia failed to have. So all of the militia would be routed for 4-24 turns(40-240 minutes). Lastly, dragons that age had LOTS of treasure, including LOTS of magic items. The odds were very good that the dragon had an AC of -5 or better due to a ring of protection being worn. A roll of 20 did not always hit. If that dragon did have a -5 AC or better, a 0 level militia man couldn't hit it in any case.

Ok. Dragon fear seam to be on sight. So the dragon has some rounds to play around.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

You can't crit if you need a 20 to hit. And you can't deal damage if you can't deal damage. A crit from those soldiers does the same 0 damage to the 1e(when they cast the protection from normal missiles spell), 2e and 3e dragons of the size/age to be threats to towns as the 0 damage from adventurers using normal ranged weapons. I don't know about 4e, but 5e needs to allow dragons to be similarly immune to common weaponry.

Ok. I was talking 5e here. Sorry to not have been clear.

No. 5e does not need that. Sorry. It is better for worldbuilding if they have something to fear. You can disagree with that. But I disagree with your reasoning. 5e handles hp and AC very differently than 1e, 2e and 3e.

5e dragaons, by the way can also be spellcasters and they could cast warding wind, which gives them about the same protection that the 1e protection from normal missiles does.
Assuming the need of a 20 to hit reduces hit chance from 1 in 20 to 1 in 400.

 

[Mistwell]

Commoners do not have long bow proficiency as it's a martial weapon so they don't add any proficiency bonus. They also are listed with a 10 strength. So they need to roll a natural 19 or 20. And the commoner archers are shooting at disadvantage because it's beyond the regular reach of a longbow of 150'. An adult red dragon has an AC of 19. So each of the 300 commoners need to roll a double 19 or 20 to hit.

My back of the envelope estimate is each militia member has 0.01 odds of hitting each round. So I think 3 hit each round. Each hit does 4.5 damage (though I realize I didn't calculate crits there, I'd need to do the odds of rolling double 20s to crit). The dragon will take 13.5 damage each round (a bit more for crits). The adult red dragon has 256 hit points so needs 57 hits to take it down, or 19 rounds in this scenario . And that's not counting the militia members who are frightened and don't even get to fire in a round and the DC to save against their Frightful Presence is Wisdom DC 19, and commoners have a +0 to Wisdom saves, so the overwhelming majority will be afraid as it has a 120' radius. Those not afraid will be the ones dying every round, and I didn't include deaths from the Dragon in my analysis either.

If that is correct, then I don't think the militia is going to succeed in killing the dragon.

 

[Maxperson]

Ok. Dragon fear seam to be on sight. So the dragon has some rounds to play around.

The fact remains that most dragons large enough(old enough) to attack a town were immune to normal ranged weaponry in 1e-3e(all in 2e-3e). 5e should adopt that stance.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The fact remains that most dragons large enough(old enough) to attack a town were immune to normal ranged weaponry in 1e-3e(all in 2e-3e). 5e should adopt that stance.

The dragon can cast blur and just attack the town. Why do they need more abilities than they needed in 1e?

 

[Maxperson]

Commoners do not have long bow proficiency as it's a martial weapon so they don't add any proficiency bonus. They also are listed with a 10 strength. So they need to roll a natural 19 or 20. And the commoner archers are shooting at disadvantage because it's beyond the regular reach of a longbow of 150'. An adult red dragon has an AC of 19. So each of the 300 commoners need to roll a double 19 or 20 to hit.

My back of the envelope estimate is each militia member has 0.01 odds of hitting each round. So I think 3 hit each round. Each hit does 4.5 damage. The dragon will take 13.5 damage each round. The adult red dragon has 256 hit points so needs 57 hits to take it down, or 19 rounds in this scenario . And that's not counting the militia members who are frightened and don't even get to fire in a round and the DC to save against their Frightful Presence is Wisdom DC 19, and commoners have a +0 to Wisdom saves, so the overwhelming majority will be afraid. Those not afraid will be the ones dying every round, and I didn't include deaths from the Dragon in my analysis either.

If that is correct, then I don't think the militia is going to succeed in killing the dragon.

There is no disadvantage for 150+ feet unless the dragon is just waving at them. The breath weapon doesn't go that far and the claws, tail and bite are even closer.

 

[Mistwell]

There is no disadvantage for 150+ feet unless the dragon is just waving at them. The breath weapon doesn't go that far and the claws, tail and bite are even closer.

Earlier people said in this thread 600' so I assumed that meant they're further than 150'. You're right to breath on them they will need to come within 60'. They're still needing to roll 19 or 20 to hit, and then deal with 120' fear effect with a Wisdom save of DC 19. Come on man, the militia is losing this scenario.