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They literally used edition-war rhetoric, in dev podcasts, during the D&D Next playtest. It was active and intentional. They also had a blog post crapping on 4e races (dragonborn in particular), with a constant "I'm just joshing, you can have your weirdo preferences if you want them!" refrain.

This was not some hidden agenda. It was literally up-front.


What else am I supposed to interpret "But he [William Wallace] wasn't shouting hands back on" as? It's outright mockery. If it had been said by a user on these forums, they'd have been infracted for it.
I get you feel that way, but . . . I'm still not seeing it.

Without going back to those 2013 podcasts, did they mock your preferences? Or mildly poke fun at the game that many of them had a hand in designing? I suppose it's a question of interpretation or what we find (or don't find) funny. But I'm not going to be able to agree that the designers were purposefully mocking even a small percentage of the fan community.

This reminds me when folks took umbrage at the cartoons released leading up to 4E's debut. The cartoons poked fun at earlier versions of D&D, and a few folks got right upset. I didn't understand the upset then either. But . . . WotC stopped putting those out after only 2 or 3 of them.

I've got some friends who are outright offended by the sit-com The Big Bang Theory for mocking nerds. I love it to death, personally.
 

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Skills and Powers,
Skills and powers changed the game drastically. More than 3.5, more than everything we have seen in OneD&D.

New psionics. Custom built races and classes.
A completeley new proficiency system (you could allocate skill points...)
Split stats. Flaws (IIRC) and traits (Ambidexterity)

The player options as a whole really did change very much and produced way more powerful characters and was a big step towards 3rd edition.

3.5, essentials, etc. did not change things enough to warrant a new edition. We have only had 5 editions of Advanced D&D. What I find amusing is that if they call it One D&D or D&D24 or whatever, it ceases to be 5e at all. They will be changing the name of the edition. 5.5e makes the most sense to me.
 

I get you feel that way, but . . . I'm still not seeing it.

Without going back to those 2013 podcasts, did they mock your preferences? Or mildly poke fun at the game that many of them had a hand in designing? I suppose it's a question of interpretation or what we find (or don't find) funny. But I'm not going to be able to agree that the designers were purposefully mocking even a small percentage of the fan community.
They cracked the joke, laughed, said "now I'm being ridiculous" (exact quote from Mike Mearls), and then explicitly used this as the justification for nixing the Warlord as a class, because the Warlord is, to them, literally nothing more than a Fighter/Bard multiclass.

It was, hands down, mockery. That's what it was meant to be. That's why they laughed about it. They were mocking the concept of a "Warlord" as a distinct class, and using that joke as the justification for excluding it. That was the whole point. (Well, that and appealing to particular segments of the fanbase.)

Hearing that stuff was the moment that all the "big tent" rhetoric became pretty obviously hollow and insincere.

I've got some friends who are outright offended by the sit-com The Big Bang Theory for mocking nerds. I love it to death, personally.
Given the awful caricatures most of the characters are, yeah, I generally agree with your friends. Sheldon in particular is one of the worst characters in geekdom; nearly every character on the show has at least one of their deplorable personality traits or failings held up as a badge of nerd-honor.
 

They also had a blog post crapping on 4e races (dragonborn in particular), with a constant "I'm just joshing, you can have your weirdo preferences if you want them!" refrain.
I happen to have all of the D&D Next blog posts saved and I can find only one discussing the 4e race options. (I assume for the purpose of this reply that you do mean "blog post" and not "website article". Please correct me if that assumption is wrong.)

This is the blog post in question. Is it the one you found offensive?
D&D Next Blog said:
Tone and Edition
(Submitted by evil_reverend)

A few years ago, I woke up and realized what I thought was fantasy wasn’t the same for everyone else. Sure, people have had worlds with winged cats that could talk, elves with red cloaks, and all sorts of tweaks and twists to the basic fantasy tropes for years. And I’ve always known that things such as the Empire of the Petal Throne and Jorune lurked on the fringes, but they were strange things wholly alien to my sensibilities. You see I cut my teeth on Tolkien, Homer, Mallory, Howard, Alexander, and the rest. The old red box D&D let me play in a version of fantasy with which I was most familiar. It let me tell my own stories set in Middle-Earth or wherever because the fundamental concepts about fantasy ranged from “one ring to rule them all” to forbidden dealings with Arioch to scaling the Tower of the Elephant. I knew elves didn’t hang out in Hyborian Age and you would never find dwarves drinking with Gawaine, but in my youthful mind I could reconcile these differences because it was all fantasy to me.

By the time 2nd Edition D&D hit the shelves, I had already solidified my views and, with the frustrating absence of assassins, half-orcs, and monks aside, the game remained true to that vision. But over the next few years, the game began to change. TSR published settings that presented different ways to play D&D. Some, such as Birthright and Mystara, weren’t that far from my tastes, while others challenged what I believed was true about D&D, notably Spelljammer, Red Steel, and Dark Sun. In some cases I embraced these visions; in others I rejected them. Thinking back, we never said we were playing D&D when we played Dark Sun. Instead, we said we were playing Dark Sun. (The same was true for Ravenloft now that I think on it.) I enjoyed those settings as games in themselves—games that just so happened to use the rules I knew so well. They weren’t D&D to me, but that was okay because they never spilled too far into the core (though the MC Appendixes would eventually chunk together all sorts of monsters from across a wide range of worlds).

The weird psychological game I played continued into 3rd Edition. The racial assortment stayed more or less the same as it had in previous editions. The game retained the core tone I had embraced years ago. Things would change. Supplements introduced new races, some expected (half-ogres and minotaurs) and some completely unexpected such as dusklings (Magic of Incarnum), illumians (Races of Destiny), and the hadozee (Stormwrack). Since these races lived in supplements, I could ignore them or use them at my discretion.

Fourth Edition, however, shocked me. I never imagined I would find dragonborn and tieflings in the Player’s Handbook. What about the gnome? Where did the half-orc go? D&D had gone and reinvented itself without consulting me! Imagine my horror. Why did the marshal deserve to be in the Player’s Handbook in place of the druid or the bard? Everything I knew to be true about D&D had been shaken up, and I was left puzzled and a bit upset—not enough to explode in nerdrage, but enough that I was uneasy.

I was so certain and so confident the dragonborn didn’t belong in D&D, I figured my players would reject the race as I did and choose something more in line with the D&D we’d always played. Imagine my surprise when one of my younger players, who was 19 at the time, immediately latched onto the dragonborn and warlord. Imagine my continued surprise when game after game my players ventured further afield than the classic array of classes and races. What I realized was that although dragonborn seemed ridiculous to me, the race had a great deal of appeal to my gaming group—the cantankerous, vulgar, twinkie group of players that they are. And if these old dudes could climb on board the tiefling, drow, dragonborn, wilden, shardmind train, then there must be people for whom these elements are fantasy for them. In the end, I made my peace with the weirder races and classes that have snuck into the game and broadened my horizons to at least not be offended that they exist. (I would use an emoticon to soften the last sentence but I won’t stoop to that sort of nonsense here.)

We’ve talked a lot about what races and classes we would include in the next core player book. I’ve argued at great length about how editions never fall at break points in people’s campaigns and that often an edition change means invalidating a choice a player has made about the character he or she is playing. I can imagine some folks were upset not to have a monk class when 1st Edition shifted to 2nd, just as I’m pretty sure some folks were upset when they couldn’t play a barbarian right out of the gate when 4E landed. We’ve tentatively agreed that D&D is big enough to accommodate the various Player’s Handbook classes and races, and we want to make sure these options are available when the next version comes out. Although this move will certainly appeal to the audience who think dragonborn and tieflings kick ass, I wonder if their inclusion will offend people with opinions that matched mine a few years ago. I’d love to say that we’re all reasonable people and finding a tiefling in the next version of the game doesn’t mean they have to appear in every world or campaign, but, being an unreasonable person myself, I can understand how such a thing might be upsetting to people who have a clear vision of what D&D ought to be. Likewise, I think people who dig the Nentir Vale and the 4E cosmology would be livid if we ripped out the dragonborn and tieflings, whose fallen empires are so important to shaping the land. Is this a no-win situation?

I don’t think so. And here’s why. We can be explicit in the rules about class and race availability. By tagging some races as common, others as uncommon, and others as rare, we can instruct players and DMs alike in how these options might fit into their settings. The core races, the common ones, might only include humans, dwarves, elves, and halflings since those races more or less appear in every D&D setting (yes, yes, kender are different from halflings—you’re welcome, Miranda). Uncommon races might include half-elves, half-orcs, high elves, and gnomes. And maybe the rare include dragonborn, drow, and tieflings. Separated in this way, a DM can tell players his or her game features only the common and uncommon races. Or, maybe the DM says only uncommon and rare races. A new DM might say just the common ones only! This method of sorting could also apply to classes so DMs looking to capture a particular tone and style can confidently and broadly select the options that most closely match his or her expectations and vision of fantasy most appropriate for his or her campaign.

There’s no poll attached to this post, but I’m eager to read what you think about this. Would dragonborn and tieflings be welcome in your campaigns? Would it be D&D with them? Without them? Does this sort of thing keep you up at night?​
 

I happen to have all of the D&D Next blog posts saved and I can find only one discussing the 4e race options. (I assume for the purpose of this reply that you do mean "blog post" and not "website article". Please correct me if that assumption is wrong.)

This is the blog post in question. Is it the one you found offensive?
That would be the one, yes.

The literal thrust of this is: We have to consider the opinions of the haters just as much as the fans. If someone would be offended by the mere existence of some option, like dragonborn, well, their opinion is just as important to us as someone who loves them, even though the existence of that option doesn't actually affect the games of the former group at all. Unless we appease the haters, we've failed in our duty to make 5e a big tent.

With a side of comments like, verbatim, "In the end, I made my peace with the weirder races and classes that have snuck into the game and broadened my horizons to at least not be offended that they exist. (I would use an emoticon to soften the last sentence but I won’t stoop to that sort of nonsense here.)" Because that's apparently supposed to be an amazing concession--that a person (a developer, no less!) chooses to stop being offended that someone else's preferences are present in D&D. And it's exactly that "but I'm being ironical, that's why I would put an emoji if I didn't think that was pandering" nonsense at the end is. Saying the quiet part out loud, and then casting it as a joke.

And then it was used to justify the genuinely terrible "common, uncommon, rare" crap, as though elves and dwarves and halflings were present in every fantasy universe, but reptilian-people are so supremely rare nobody's heard of them. Rather than the eminently more useful and reasonable couple pages talking about stuff like: "Race (and class) contribute to a campaign theme, and thus DMs and players should work together to articulate the themes they like. Some universes don't have halflings, or have 'dwarves' being a particular variety of elf! Some fantasy universe have pacifist minotaurs, or cat-people and lizard-people commonly seen across the world. Some games, perhaps the only playable races in the world are the ones the players have chosen--this can be an exciting worldbuilding exercise for the whole group. Other times, the DM may say that some races are available and others aren't--or may leave the door open for just about anything. The best results will always come from DMs and players working with one another, trying to build to a mutually-satisfying result."
 

That would be the one, yes.
I see a blog post in which the author specifically categorizes their own opinion of the topic as "unreasonable", highlights the appeal of unusual races to other members of their gaming group and argues for an inclusive approach to those races in 5e.

I understand that you were offended by it, so clearly you have every right to describe the post as offensive. But characterizing it as intentionally mocking your choices seems like a real stretch. If anything, I got the impression that the author was mocking their own limited view to make the point that an inclusive approach to 4e races was a good idea. If the post did offend, I have a really hard time believing that was the author's intention.​
 

I see a blog post in which the author specifically categorizes their own opinion of the topic as "unreasonable", highlights the appeal of unusual races to other members of their gaming group and argues for an inclusive approach to those races in 5e.

I understand that you were offended by it, so clearly you have every right to describe the post as offensive. But characterizing it as intentionally mocking your choices seems like a real stretch. If anything, I got the impression that the author was mocking their own limited view to make the point that an inclusive approach to 4e races was a good idea. If the post did offend, I have a really hard time believing that was the author's intention.​
I find the very idea of hater-appeasement offensive when it comes to including purely optional elements in a leisure activity. It is, explicitly, making the "unreasonable" those who get to define what is and isn't present. One must dance to their tune. As opposed to, y'know, just telling them that it's unreasonable to hate something because someone else can enjoy using it in a way you (generic) don't like, that doesn't cause any harm to you (generic) or anyone else.

Hater-appeasement should be actively repudiated. Instead, it is held up as a horrible conundrum: "How do we appease the haters, without just flipping the bird to folks who like this stuff? Oh, I know! We deprecate the things they like, so that the haters get official recognition, but the fans aren't actually excluded."

This would, in fact, be exactly why a user on this very forum, genuinely without a trace of malice, explicitly said to me, "Be happy that you have rules for them at all." Because posts like this? Yeah, they were a very clear reminder, "If the haters had been vocal enough, we probably wouldn't have included dragonborn at all."

Edit: And evil_reverend--better known as Robert Schwalb--did not confine lopsided or inaccurate statements to just this post. See, for example, this ENworld thread from the time, reacting to a different post. One that, again, cast disparaging (and in this case, false) statements at 4e (in this case, the claim that people only started using focus-fire tactics because of 4e.)
 
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I find the very idea of hater-appeasement offensive when it comes to including purely optional elements in a leisure activity. It is, explicitly, making the "unreasonable" those who get to define what is and isn't present. One must dance to their tune. As opposed to, y'know, just telling them that it's unreasonable to hate something because someone else can enjoy using it in a way you (generic) don't like, that doesn't cause any harm to you (generic) or anyone else.

Hater-appeasement should be actively repudiated. Instead, it is held up as a horrible conundrum: "How do we appease the haters, without just flipping the bird to folks who like this stuff? Oh, I know! We deprecate the things they like, so that the haters get official recognition, but the fans aren't actually excluded."
As much as I agree with you in principle, I am sad to tell you that in the social media times a certain hater appeasement is necessary because their voice gets multiplied in the echo chamber of the webs which will negatively affect the game as a whole.
(See 4e).

This would, in fact, be exactly why a user on this very forum, genuinely without a trace of malice, explicitly said to me, "Be happy that you have rules for them at all." Because posts like this? Yeah, they were a very clear reminder, "If the haters had been vocal enough, we probably wouldn't have included dragonborn at all."
5e designers have managed to get a lot of 4e design into the game, while having it look like 3e on the surface. Part of that was only including options that don't stray to far away from 3e and hiding 4e options under 3e terms (saving throws, hit dice, proficiency bonus).
Edit: And evil_reverend--better known as Robert Schwalb--did not confine lopsided or inaccurate statements to just this post. See, for example, this ENworld thread from the time, reacting to a different post. One that, again, cast disparaging (and in this case, false) statements at 4e (in this case, the claim that people only started using focus-fire tactics because of 4e.)
At least they did not bash 4e as hard as designers of 4e bashed 3e.
 

And, catching back up on the thread, I once more stand by my observation.

The majority of people I see who want to use 5.5 also hold the position that WoTC is lying/deceiving/obfuscating/using deceptive marketing tactics/cowardly/trying to have their cake and eat it to/downplaying/ ect ect ect ect the changes in the books, and that the only true, objective, and correct thing is to recognize the new books as a half edition change, exactly like they did before when they were floundering and in trouble.
I don't know about the majority, but certainly a very vocal few. And its annoying, especially for a small number who seemed compelled to spam the same arguments across every thread discussing the new books. But that seems to have gotten a lot better.
For those of us who like what we have seen, and want the books to succeed, we don't want this negativity and baggage. This isn't a position we want to invigorate, because who is going to want to books that are labeled with lies and deceptive marketing to make them more appealing to save a dying edition (most of which I feel is untrue)? So, those of us who are going to be pushing the books and the new rules as something we want to use... we aren't going to use that terminology. It will cause nothing but short-term harm.
I wan't the books to succeed and like what I've seen so far. Negativity is par for the course, however, in these kinds of online spaces. I don't expect everyone to have the same opinions and tastes that I do, and sometimes good and interesting points are raised by those holding different opinions. For those I don't find interesting, I don't engage. And for the occasional sea lion, I have the ignore feature.

I think you may be overstating the effect that arguments over nomenclature surrounding the new books will have. I don't think arguments over the what people "should" call the new rules that take place on gaming forums, YouTube, and other social media have much of an effect one way or another. I do think that it makes a lot of sense in terms of marketing for WotC to just use D&D in the branding. I went from "Basic D&D" to "Advanced D&D", left gaming and came back with 5e. I missed all the post WotC buyout edition wars and still find how the TTRPG community uses the word "edition" to be strange. Ultimately, I don't much care. I'll check out the new books when they are released and, if I like what I see, I'll buy them, whether WotC or the community uses "edition", "version", just "D&D", or "electric boogaloo".
And if the people advocating for the changes aren't using the term, then that isn't the term that will spread.
Who knows. My guess is that there will be short period of people talking the new rules using a variety of terminology and the vast majority of players will soon just be saying D&D with the assumption of playing the newest rules, which will be baked into D&D Beyond and the WotC VTT. There will be diehard adherents to the 2014 rules for a variety of reasons and many of these players will make a point of using edition language to clarify that they prefer the older rules and some of them will be using it as coded language to indicate disfavor with the current rules.
 

Tangent: I run an afterschool D&D club for middle-schoolers. Out of about 20 kids, I was only able to get ONE of them to use D&D Beyond. The rest prefer to use the physical books, even though we don't have enough to go round . . .

For this reason, as a club, we are NOT moving forward to the 2024 rules. Although since they will be fully compatible, if a kid brings their own PHB 2024, that's fine.
Yeah, I find that common assertion I see made in posts in EN World about all the younger people only using D&D Beyond and playing online doesn't match my experience. I think that this may be true for many or most players in their 20s or 30s (young from my perspective) but among the three groups (about 20 players) my 8th grade son plays in, NONE use D&D Beyond. I've even offered use of my account. They all use books, paper, and pencil. It's my son's 52-year-old father (hi!) and his friends in their 40s and 50s playing the game with D&D Beyond and Foundry.

It'll be interesting to see if my son and his friends move to the new books. I expect that will be determined by Christmas and birthday presents.

Though, who knows, if they follow the gaming trajectory that me and my friends followed when I was their age, they are due to start branching out into other systems.
 

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