D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

No. This combined class doesn't need to follow the current warlock subclass structure exactly; aftercall, we are intentionally broadening things so that we can represent more concepts. Daron pact would still have its dragons stuff, though some of it might be take a form of dragon-themed invocations.
Ah, so now abstraction is good, when it gets you what you want, and takes away what others like? Can't say I'm super pleased about that sort of argumentation.

It's not. Spreading things too thin makes both thematics and rules strained, and we end up with things with confused fluff like current warlock and sorcerer and classes whose mechanics are lacklustre as the design space was too crowded like the current sorcerer, or too inflexible like the current warlock.
It...does neither of those things.

Trying to cram three classes into the same box necessarily, guaranteed, makes those three distinct things watered down. The single superclass is forced to avoid doing anything that would contradict any of the things being shoved into it--forcing it into safe, blandly inoffensive non-commitment. But because 5e subclasses are incredibly narrow things, unable to actually carry much of a theme themselves even in classes that already are carrying the general class theme (see: Paladin subclasses, where even as a Paladin fan I challenge folks to tell me the real, meaningful difference between Devotion and Redemption, or between Glory, Vengeance, and Conquest--without splitting hairs), you're left with having to pare down to only the barest minimum of representation, and leaving the rest purely projected onto the class by the player.

If you, for example, shove Ranger, Paladin, and Barbarian into Fighter, the Fighter now can't commit to anything that would ever be contradictory to any of those three classes--and has to squeeze all of the flavor thereof into no more than four, small, subclass features. Mechanically, you are absolutely strained because you can't alter upward, only downward--you're stuck with the Fighter chassis. The super-class has to become as generic and bland as possible, and the subclass has to squeeze everything it can out of a tiny handful of often very minimally influential pieces, because if any subclass is too powerful, it will overwhelm the other options, and players will (rightfully) complain about it. Because, despite all assertions to the contrary, even the 5e fanbase does in fact care about balance.

Now, if subclasses worked the way 4e builds did, where you could actually swap out core class features for different options, then perhaps the mechanical strain induced by shoving three classes into a single superclass trenchcoat wouldn't be so bad. It would still be present, but at least you could mitigate the problem upward as well as downward. But that's not how 5e works, and unless something truly radical changes at WotC, it's not how any revision of 5e ever will work.

The one, and only, reason that the Sorcerer and Warlock have lackluster mechanics has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they're separate classes, and absolutely everything to do with the fact that they got, only and precisely, ONE playtest packet before they were permanently removed from public playtesting. They never resurfaced until the leaked document which contained, more or less, the final published form of 5e.

The Sorcerer and Warlock are lackluster because they were thrown together last-minute due to the D&D Next playtesting process wasting nearly three years repeatedly rewriting the Fighter--because the public playtesting process had several fundamentally wrongheaded ideas about how effective playtesting works.
 

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We can just have one "death mage" subclass, instead of writing separate necromancer, undying and shadow subclasses, giving them more time to cover more concepts that are actually separate.
I wouldn't be happy with this and that death mage would fail at living up to the potential of these as presented.

Excusing base class mechanics (IE: Wizard memorisation), these concepts alone won't fit together. Necromancer is necromancer, the stereotype for them is lots of skeletons and stuff like bone magic, but pop culture has it mainly about the summons. Undying on the other hand doesn't have any summoning at all, nothing necromancer has really fits it. It does have a lot of stopping people dying techinques, including a bunch of normally clerical abilities. Shadows is neither of these in the foggiest. Its about shadows. Its got nothing to do with death magic. Its about hiding and concealing yourself, using darkvision, and summoning things from the darkness (things that are not spooky scary skeletons ripped from your dead enemies, unlike necro). Its closer to a rogue if anything.

If you shove all that into one class, its either the most overly complicated class ever and more at home in a "Build your own class" game, or so watered down that it can't successfully reach any of those ideas
 


@EzekielRaiden I agree with you that in the process of combining classes interesting and evocative mechanical distinctions can get lost, but as sorcerer doesn’t have interestingly evocative mechanics to begin with, that’s not an issue here.
Because it failed to do that. Not because there couldn't be any.

If the choice is between "do a thing which definitely does have known, major costs" and "do something else that addresses the problem without those costs" it seems quite clear to me which of the two solutions is preferable.

Don't destroy the Sorcerer just because the playtest was badly managed.
 

@EzekielRaiden I agree with you that in the process of combining classes interesting and evocative mechanical distinctions can get lost, but as sorcerer doesn’t have interestingly evocative mechanics to begin with, that’s not an issue here.
I mean, we had a whole edition of interesting mechanics and the fanbase by and large rejected it

The Sorcerer has evocative flavour and is basically a ready-made backstory generator. The game should give it proper mechanics, not ditch it
 

The Sorcerer has evocative flavour and is basically a ready-made backstory generator. The game should give it proper mechanics, not ditch it
That implies that the other full casters all have "proper mechanics" and the Sorcerer doesn't... which I don't think is really true either. The Bard, Cleric, Druid, and Wizard all have standard full caster mechanics but none of them are all the special over that moreso than the Sorcerer. Bardic Inspiration, Channel Divinity, Wildshape, and Arcane Recovery are not any more impressive or proper than Metamagic.

All five classes are standard full caster classes, none of which have mechanics that are so wildly different as to make them special or "proper". So I don't see why Sorcerer requires something different over what they already have. Heck, the Sorcerer's Sorcery Points and Metamagic are arguably even more a "proper" mechanic than whatever the Wizard has currently. The only real "special" mechanic the Wizard gets is a larger spell list.
 

Because it failed to do that. Not because there couldn't be any.

If the choice is between "do a thing which definitely does have known, major costs" and "do something else that addresses the problem without those costs" it seems quite clear to me which of the two solutions is preferable.

Don't destroy the Sorcerer just because the playtest was badly managed.
I think my solution would be an improvement on the current situation and compared to that nothing of value would be lost. The only thing that would be lost is the potential to do your pipe dream sorcerer instead. But they’re not gonna do that anyway. Nor are they gonna combine these classes like I want. So in that sense we’re in the same boat. 🤷
 
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That implies that the other full casters all have "proper mechanics" and the Sorcerer doesn't... which I don't think is really true either. The Bard, Cleric, Druid, and Wizard all have standard full caster mechanics but none of them are all the special over that moreso than the Sorcerer. Bardic Inspiration, Channel Divinity, Wildshape, and Arcane Recovery are not any more impressive or proper than Metamagic.

All five classes are standard full caster classes, none of which have mechanics that are so wildly different as to make them special or "proper". So I don't see why Sorcerer requires something different over what they already have. Heck, the Sorcerer's Sorcery Points and Metamagic are arguably even more a "proper" mechanic than whatever the Wizard has currently. The only real "special" mechanic the Wizard gets is a larger spell list.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'd gut like 75% of the classes and rebuild them from scratch if I had my way. Just, when sorc's on the menu, we at least know they can do better from playtest sorcerer, the ever inattainable dream. So that's at least the one we can go "We had a better option"
 
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We have that, it's called the wizard.

I'm basically just suggesting making its subclasses into things which aren't just a list of spell schools, and giving it back metamagic like it had before. People are always complaining that the wizard is incredibly boring and barebones beyond just having lots of spells.
metamagic should remain the sorcerer's thing IMO, the wizard doesn't need it, they're already overtuned and their blandness comes from a reluctance to give wizard any sort of restrictions turning it into this generic blob of spells and slots, it's the 'bigger stick' class of casting, all power no style, it gets basically everything on it's spell list it could want bar healing but that comes at the cost of giving it any meaningful flavour.

the wizard would be much more interesting if the class started with a much smaller base spell list like the sorcerer and the subclasses actually were designed to build you into a theme, (using the sorcerer's list as a base here) the diviner has the 9 divination spells naturally from their base spell list (clairvoyance, comprehend languages, detect magic, detect thoughts, mind spike, see invisibility, tongues, true seeing, true strike), give them an expanded spell list to cover some of the most basic off-class divination spells or flavourful ones that aren't technically divination, and a subclass ability to copy any divination spell they come across regardless of origin, and bam! your diviner actually feels like a diviner rather than some generic magic user who happens to have an above average number of divination spells known.

sure every wizard would LIKE to throw around fireballs, but it's more meaningful for the flavour when it's only the evoker who gets to because that's the evoker's THING, in an environment like that of curated subclasses i could more than support a 'metamagic wizard subclass' but not as it is.
 
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No, the only way to do a merge is by putting wizard into sorcerer. The other way around only leadsto killing the sorcerer and giving its toys to the wizard. In that other thread were I argued against merging, I proposed this subclass on a whim, on an hypothetical version that did away with the wizard. Can you do one that supports a satisfactory sorcerer (no book, no studying, no prep, no int)?

Sorcerous Origin: Wizardry

Not all sorcerers are uneducated and illiterate. Many are born with just a humble spark that needs to be harnessed, controlled and nurtured through tireless study under the guide of a mentor. These sorcerers are known as wizards.

1st Level
Academy learning
You gain training in Arcana, History, Religion and Medicine. You also gain expertise in one of these skills.

Wizardry
Through you studies you have untapped the possibility of manipulating your own magic. However the details are long and hard to remember.
Pick a school of magic, you gain a spell book which contains a number of first level spells of that school equal to 1+ your intelligence modifier. You can choose one of the spells in your book and add it to your spells known until you finish a long rest. You also learn two first level rituals of your choice and write them in your spellbook. If you find a scroll or a spellbook with spells of your chosen school or rituals of a level you can cast, you can copy them to your book at the cost of 50gp per spell level.

6th level
Weave Manipulation
When you cast a spell from your chosen school that requires a saving throw, you can spend 2 sorcery points to add your intelligence modifier to the spell DC of that spell.

14th level
Improved Wizardry
Starting at 14th level, you can now prepare a number of spells from your spellbook equal to you intelligence modifier.

18th level
Arcane recovery
When the target of a spell you cast from your chosen school fails its saving throw, you recover sorcery points equal to that spell's level. You need to complete a long rest before you use this ability again.
I would be fine with killing the Sorcerer, giving metamagic back to the Wizard, and just letting spell points be an alternate way to cast. The inborn or study question is largely narrative, and can be represented by making the ability connected to casting spells selectable.
 

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