D&D General New Interview with Rob Heinsoo About 4E

[zakael19]

There is also something to be said for how complicated many of these games are. They could be a lot simpler with a lot less math. It's one of the ways gamers seem to think casual gatekeeping is perfectly acceptable.

Almost none of these games have a genuine tutorial either, the way pretty much every video game does when systems are this complex (not that there's uniform quality there). I just ran the Fabula Ultima "Press Start" tutorial mission for one of my usual groups of fairly new players, and the way it teaches through the character sheet by "locking" them with a number and then giving the GM some instructional text and an immediate scene to run that uses that portion of the sheet is nothing short of brilliant.

By the end, everybody grasps the fundamental core systems and math together.

 

[overgeeked]

Eh. I'm a big proponent of accessibility, but there's real design costs to simplicity that start to be very constraining. You get the impression the issue for some people is having any rules more complicated than "roll high."

No all that into accessibility, apparently.

 

[overgeeked]

Almost none of these games have a genuine tutorial either, the way pretty much every video game does when systems are this complex (not that there's uniform quality there). I just ran the Fabula Ultima "Press Start" tutorial mission for one of my usual groups of fairly new players, and the way it teaches through the character sheet by "locking" them with a number and then giving the GM some instructional text and an immediate scene to run that uses that portion of the sheet is nothing short of brilliant.

By the end, everybody grasps the fundamental core systems and math together.

Yeah. It's a great starter adventure. It's almost like video games with their dramatically bigger budgets and actually tracked metrics have figured things out...like providing a detailed, step-by-step tutorial. D&D had this back in the BECMI days with the red box. Literally walked you through playing the game.

 

[Pedantic]

No all that into accessibility, apparently.

There's a big difference between descending AC as a norm and full on coin flipping as your resolution mechanic. Look at other mediums: you can't get to say Wingspan if you don't allow any more mechanical complexity than tic-tac-toe, but that game has an accessibility consultant on hand who prompted a variety of changes to the card structure with later printings.

It's not reasonable to conflate a tiny design space with an accessible game.

 

[overgeeked]

There's a big difference between descending AC as a norm and full on coin flipping as your resolution mechanic. Look at other mediums: you can't get to say Wingspan if you don't allow any more mechanical complexity than tic-tac-toe, but that game has an accessibility consultant on hand who prompted a variety of changes to the card structure with later printings.

It's not reasonable to conflate a tiny design space with an accessible game.

It's not reasonable to conflate complex design with good design. Well designed games can be simply designed. You could even argue that simple design is good design.

No matter how you try to sugar coat it, the fact remains: the more complex the design, the fewer people who will be able to play the game.

 

[Undrave]

No matter how you try to sugar coat it, the fact remains: the more complex the design, the fewer people who will be able to play the game.

Is a game obligated to be playable by everybody?

 

[Chaltab]

The design space for in 5E may be smaller but I'd hardly call it tiny. Advantage/Disadvantage replaces a lot but not everything. Even aside from the traditional stuff like spell slots and hit points...

Item enhancement bonuses are still a thing.
Ki/Discipline/etc points
Sorcery points
Uses per day (Item charges, charges based on modifiers, charges equal to proficiency)
Cover (+2 AC) and 3/4ths Cover (+5 AC)
Spells that still grant static bonus (Armor of Faith, Pass Without Trace)
Spells and abilities that grant bonus or penalty dice (Bane, Bless, Bardic Inspiration, Superiority Dice)

 

[overgeeked]

Is a game obligated to be playable by everybody?

It's a game. It doesn't have obligations. The designers make choices when they design their games. They're free to design their game however they want. But, the more complex the game, the fewer people who will be able to play it. That's a choice the designers make, too. And it's still casually accepted gatekeeping.

 

[TwoSix]

There's a big difference between descending AC as a norm and full on coin flipping as your resolution mechanic. Look at other mediums: you can't get to say Wingspan if you don't allow any more mechanical complexity than tic-tac-toe, but that game has an accessibility consultant on hand who prompted a variety of changes to the card structure with later printings.

It's not reasonable to conflate a tiny design space with an accessible game.

Right. "Accessibility" and "Complexity" are not opposites. It's certainly much easier for a simple game to be accessible, but a complex game can be made accessible with well-written rules and targeted documentation to help get newcomers on board.

We're allowed to be kinda geeky and sometimes just enjoy complexity of systems for their own sake. Like, I'm glad that Sushi Go! exists to play with my daughter, but sometimes I want to play Terraforming Mars instead.

The sticking point is that we can want D&D (as the genre king) to be both the accessible on-boarding experience and the "detailed complexity" experience at different times and with different groups, but it's pretty hard for one game to do all that well.

 

[overgeeked]

Right. "Accessibility" and "Complexity" are not opposites.

Except they are, as you casually provide an example of here...

I'm glad that Sushi Go! exists to play with my daughter, but sometimes I want to play Terraforming Mars instead.

Why can't you play Terraforming Mars with your daughter? Is there something about the complexity of the rules that prevents her from playing it with you?

The more complex a game is the less accessible it is, by definition. What does not follow is simple games do not equal accessible games. Simpler games can be accessible or not depending on other things like presentation, accounting for color blindness, cultural norms, etc. But what won't prevent access is the complexity of the rules themselves.