Spoilers Star Wars: The Acolyte [Spoilers]

[Older Beholder]

At first I thought that. Jekyll and Hyde type thing.

There's a video, but I can't seem to get the link to work.
If you're interest in the theory search youtube for:

THE ACOLYTE HAS A CRAZY PLOT TWIST!​

 

[Hussar]

/snip

I think the main thing with Star Wars is they are trying to find new fans, because the old fans are a massive liability.

I get where you're coming from. The fandom has certianly not done itself any favors.

OTOH, perhaps actually engaging criticism instead of blowing it off as misogynistic or bigoted might help to take the conversation down several notches? It's entirely possible to not like something without being a bigot or hating women. Particularly when I was pretty clear that the reason I didn't like the episode was because of pacing - as in something I can actually back up with real evidence - rather than trotting out tired old memes like "Mary Sue" or being "woke" or whatever.

Sometimes, just once in a while, people who generally likes stuff, might not like the stuff that you happen to like.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

OTOH, perhaps actually engaging criticism instead of blowing it off as misogynistic or bigoted might help to take the conversation down several notches?

Honest question - what are they supposed to engage with?

Even ignoring the massive bigotry, which is extremely common and hard to avoid, you yourself effectively "blowing off" how common it is, a lot of the criticism is just dumb. It's really bad criticism. It doesn't have anything to say - it's just rubbish like "Luke should have been a super-badass and taken Kylo Ren over his knee and given him a good spanking!", or utter drivel like "Rian Johnson is a bad director!". Like absolutely not, no he isn't. That's not real criticism. It's just drivel.

90% of the "criticism" of Disney's Star Wars prior to TROS was essentially "THIS DOESN'T MATCH MY EXISTING HEADCANON!", and 90% of that headcanon was "Here's what happened in the old EU/Legends novels".

So what was Disney supposed to do, just make various of the old EU/Legends stuff as movies?

I'm not saying you didn't have valid criticisms, but most people criticising were either being bigots, being mad that their headcanon wasn't on screen, or both. And a lot of it was all mixed up together - like, even removing bigotry, a third of a person's criticisms might be semi-valid and even potentially actionable, another third would be ludicrous opinions (c.f. "Rian Johnson is a bad director" - again no he isn't), and the third third would be just headcanon/nostalgia stuff.

And they could have fixed the actual actionable third of the complaints, and then the two thirds which were non-actionable drivel would still be there, and the person would still be extremely mad.

So what's even the point?

I mean, they never really "addressed" any of the flaws of the PT, did they? They just built Clone Wars over them, acted like the flaws weren't there and made something good. And that worked out.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Honest question - what are they supposed to engage with?

Even ignoring the massive bigotry, which is extremely common and hard to avoid, you yourself effectively "blowing off" how common it is, a lot of the criticism is just dumb. It's really bad criticism. It doesn't have anything to say - it's just rubbish like "Luke should have been a super-badass and taken Kylo Ren over his knee and given him a good spanking!", or utter drivel like "Rian Johnson is a bad director!". Like absolutely not, no he isn't. That's not real criticism. It's just drivel.

90% of the "criticism" of Disney's Star Wars prior to TROS was essentially "THIS DOESN'T MATCH MY EXISTING HEADCANON!", and 90% of that headcanon was "Here's what happened in the old EU/Legends novels".

So what was Disney supposed to do, just make various of the old EU/Legends stuff as movies?

I'm not saying you didn't have valid criticisms, but most people criticising were either being bigots, being mad that their headcanon wasn't on screen, or both. And a lot of it was all mixed up together - like, even removing bigotry, a third of a person's criticisms might be semi-valid and even potentially actionable, another third would be ludicrous opinions (c.f. "Rian Johnson is a bad director" - again no he isn't), and the third third would be just headcanon/nostalgia stuff.

And they could have fixed the actual actionable third of the complaints, and then the two thirds which were non-actionable drivel would still be there, and the person would still be extremely mad.

So what's even the point?

I mean, they never really "addressed" any of the flaws of the PT, did they? They just built Clone Wars over them, acted like the flaws weren't there and made something good. And that worked out.

I think a lot of people have bifurcated the fandom into camps oriented around culture war issues. Personally I tried to engage the new movies on their own terms. For example when the first film came out, I loved Rey, didn't see her as a mary sue at all (and being a fan of wuxia films, which often feature strong female action heroes, I feel the term Mary Sue really gets overused anyways). I thought things were off to a promising start. When The Last Jedi Came out and things really got emotional I waited over six months to watch it, probably closer to a year, so my opinion wouldn't be shaded by everything I was hearing online (that is one of the first movies I remember as part of this modern trend where the critics loved it but a large contingent of fans didn't (and looking up the present RT score it is like 91% to 41% still). I found as a result my opinion was a little off from most people I knew. I thought it was one of the most visually stunning films in the franchise (but visually true to the look go the series). I loved Rose Tico (who was often one of the more criticized characters) and I liked the love story between her and Finn. I was less enthusiastic about Luke's dark turn but I liked what they did with Rey. I thought it did a real disservice to HUx, for the sake of humor (and possibly of making apolitical point). He was one of the more terrifying villains I had seen in the series, and not even a Jedi. I found him interesting in the first film, but he was just corny in this one. Killing Snoke didn't bother me but some of the dialogue in that scene felt like the screen writer talking through the character if that makes sense. Overall I found it an entertaining film but I think it created a problem for the trilogy by not serving as a good middle film (it didn't leave me as a viewer desperate to find out what happens in the third movie, I wasn't even particularly sure where the momentum of the trilogy was heading towards at the end). The third movie, initially I kind of liked but it was similar to how I kind of liked the first prequel movie (it was more me being hopeful than the movie being good). The final battle is awful in every possible sense (and this was even undeniable on a first viewing). Visually it was ugly (overall I found the third movie the least interesting visually). The battle made no logical sense (I think Ryan Johnson, while I might quibble about some of the decisions with the battles, created a stronger sense of consistency than Abrahms did in the third movie). The third film kept doing things then taking them back. When they 'killed' Chewbacca that was an impactful scene for Rey, but they took it away seconds later. The whole thing with Palpatine was confusing and weird and took away from the earlier movies. The third film was just bad. I think the biggest problem with the trilogy is it didn't feel well planned, they essentially pitted two directors against each other so neither was able to commit to anything they started in a meaningful way (for example the third movie drops the Rose Tico and Finn love story---which honestly was probably a purely political move due to appealing to all possible international markets---and all the threads established in the first movie were cut by the second).

My options are just that, my options. I don't expect everyone to share them. But I think it is weird we are in a place where people get labeled politically or people are at the point of not wanting to talk to one another because of how they feel about a star wars movie. Some instances I am sure are people being jerks. I am sure there are occasional instances or people having their views driven by their politics, but I think on the whole people like something or they don't and the reasons are pretty subjective and personal. I think both Disney and the people who are building a cottage industry around being anti-Disney, are just driving division and making it impossible for fans to have honest conversations with one another about how they feel about this stuff.

When it comes to this show, I think it is at the pinnacle of what I am talking about. There is no in between for most people. You are either for the movie or against it. I haven't seen it, so I don't know if it is good or bad. The negativity coming from the poeople making it and the negativity coming from the people dead set against it, both are creating an environment where any enjoyment I might get from watching it and discussing it, just doesn't seem possible. Again one of the reasons I don't watch a lot of new show and movies is there isnt' really a healthy conversation to be had like there used to be. People want to turn one another into heroes of villains based on whether they like this show, like this character, hate this show or hate that character. And it is always done in the most point scoring and existential terms. If people like a show they should be able to say so without fear of being labeled something. If they hate a show they should be able to say so without fear of being labeled something.

 

[Hussar]

Honest question - what are they supposed to engage with?

Well, howzabout engaging with the criticism I made instead of calling me a bigot for not liking something?

Doesn'T seem that complicated to me.

This was my criticism of the episode:

Well, watched EP 4 for what it was worth. That was ... not good. I'm very willing to give a lot of leeway to stuff, but, wow, that was pointless. Let's introduce a really cool Wookie Jedi and then kill them in the most boring way possible. As an added bonus, we get to watch the characters traipse through a forest for most of the episode and.... kill a big moth.

That was an episode that was pretty much entirely skippable.

And this was the response, which you've now doubled down on twice to defend:

Sometimes, I think that the overlap between Stars Wars fans and people who can detect subtlety is tiny.

Live action Star Wars show that would be popular with the fanbase: two white males hitting each other with lightsabres for 10 hours.

So, either I'm just too stupid to get it, or I'm a bigot. Not exactly conducive to conversation.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I came across a theory that Mae and Osha are the same person, (Like in a fight club), which I'm starting to think makes a lot of sense (despite some misdirects and contradictions).
It's unlikely, but still interesting.

Personally I'm enjoying the mystery aspect of the show.

This theory occurred to me, and I have looked for clues to support it, but they seem to be at least physically separate. Sol did seem to be telling the truth when he said Mae could not possibly have survived the fall though, so she could be some kind of astral projection (see Luke).

I would also like to put forward that because of the circumstances of their birth, some characters believe they are the chosen one of prophecy.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Well, howzabout engaging with the criticism I made instead of calling me a bigot for not liking something?

Doesn'T seem that complicated to me.

This was my criticism of the episode:


And this was the response, which you've now doubled down on twice to defend:




So, either I'm just too stupid to get it, or I'm a bigot. Not exactly conducive to conversation.

Sorry, but you're talking more generally, you don't get to say "Oh we can only talk about my specific criticism". You opened up the door to Disney generally ignoring "valid" criticism, and my point is, easily 90% of that criticism of Star Wars specifically isn't actionable.

Even your specific criticism isn't very actionable, and your whole "really cool Wookie Jedi" thing is nonsensical. He wasn't cool - he didn't have time to be - if you think Wookies are innately cool that's fine but you need to be honest enough to recognise that's not a position that makes much sense, and not real criticism.

My position remains the same - your complaint that Disney doesn't listen to criticism remains largely invalid because of the quality and nature of that criticism.

What's funny is, the MCU shows Disney isn't very good at taking criticism, and shows it very clearly, but despite some bigotry there too, the criticism has generally been a lot sharper and more actionable. Just far too much of SW criticism is fannish nonsense, nostalgia-smoked-clouded, or various flavours of bigotry (from the mild but detectable to the very extreme). And I'm sorry "Cool Wookie Jedi" falls under "fannish nonsense". It literally weakens your criticism to include that.

Also Paul's allegation was failure to understand subtlety and criticism like this really isn't shaking that accusation. If you want criticism to be the kind that studios might listen to, it need to be precise, it needs to be actionable, and it needs to be actually critical, rather merely harrumphing. It's fine to go on the internet and say "Well I thought this just sucked!". But you extended that complaint to "Disney doesn't listen!".

 

[Hussar]

Sorry, but you're talking more generally, you don't get to say "Oh we can only talk about my specific criticism". You opened up the door to Disney generally ignoring "valid" criticism, and my point is, easily 90% of that criticism of Star Wars specifically isn't actionable.

Umm... no I didn't?

I criticised a single episode for being boring and nothing much happening and got told I was a bigot.

 

[John R Davis]

Umm... no I didn't?

I criticised a single episode for being boring and nothing much happening and got told I was a bigot.

Unfortunately, this is the way.
How they can make Star Wars and it not be exciting is my number 1 bit of despair. Especially not seeing a furry with their light sabre in action.

 

[Raunalyn]

Isn't very nice being called a bigot, is it?

Perhaps there is a lesson there...