D&D (2024) DMG adventure design advice - a bit contradictory?

[UngainlyTitan]

Here the perception of an issue:

(1) How does the adventure play out? Determine the encounters or events that take the characters from the beginning of the adventure to the end.​

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(2) the events of the story shouldn't be pre-determined​

(1) and (2) - which are both direct quotes - seem like conflicting instructions to me. How can I determine in advance without pre-determining?

As long as you do not determine everything in advance, or at least give yourself leave to change the predetermined stuff in response to character actions then you have determined stuff in advance with out pre-determining the story.

I will re-iterate my initial comments. This discussion is premature, you are focusing on text on one page that is clearly going to be expanded on in later text and operating as if it is the complete advice.

On the other hand, to directly address your point. A classic dungeon, pre-stocked with rooms with traps and monsters is a completely pre-determined adventure.
The order in which the characters tackle the job of clearing it out is not so predetermined, even if the dungeon is particularly linear as they have non-combat options (or as long as the DM is willing to accommodate alternative ways of tackling the encounter).

 

[Minigiant]

Bring it to an End more or less sounds like Give the Bad Guys a goal and how they they can succeed or fail to reach that goal.

 

[Aldarc]

I think that the tension lies in the lauded adage that the Alexandrian popularized about fifteen years ago: "prep situations, not plots." It seems reasonable that some could read the quoted bits of the DMG here with good faith as advice to "prep plots," as it is a common trap that GMs, old and new alike, fall into.

 

[KYRON45]

Know your players. You can predict the end in so far as if you were writing a story and how a rational author or your grandma might get to the end. Once your players are added to the mix they are going to metaphorically and sometimes literally set anything you plan on fire.

Player/DM chemistry is a big part of D&D. Know your players. Learn what they think is reasonable so you can plan for it. Learn what they think is fun so you can be prepared for the hilarity that may ensue. Never hold on too tight to the outcome that YOU want.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Here the perception of an issue:

(1) How does the adventure play out? Determine the encounters or events that take the characters from the beginning of the adventure to the end.​

​

(2) the events of the story shouldn't be pre-determined​

(1) and (2) - which are both direct quotes - seem like conflicting instructions to me. How can I determine in advance without pre-determining?

That just seems very literalistic and almost like searching for problems, to me.

Determining what encounters are “on deck” as it were, does not determine what the players will do. It merely gives the adventure enough structure to have a point (eg an adventure about a demonic incursion caused by the actions of a misguided cult). It doesn’t predetermine any outcomes or what the players will do.

 

[Parmandur]

Here the perception of an issue:

(1) How does the adventure play out? Determine the encounters or events that take the characters from the beginning of the adventure to the end.​

​

(2) the events of the story shouldn't be pre-determined​

(1) and (2) - which are both direct quotes - seem like conflicting instructions to me. How can I determine in advance without pre-determining?

What it is saying is

1. Plan
2. Realize your plan will inevitably fall apart

Doesn't mean planning isn't helpful!

 

[KYRON45]

What it is saying is

1. Plan
2. Realize your plan will inevitably fall apart

Doesn't mean planning isn't helpful!

Oh yeah...you have to plan....otherwise the players have nothing to ruin.

 

[Scott Christian]

I think it is premature to really say, without seeing the section that expands on the "Plan encounters" section.
After all a published adventure is a set of planned encounters and locations.
If you tell me that your character and buddies plan to kick in the door to the Thieves Guild, it might be worthwhile to have some encounters and an idea as to the layout.
It could be at odds but I think we should weight until we see the complete chapter before condemning the advice.

Not to mention, many of the DMs I know ask the group what they plan to do next session so they can prep. Maybe they left off trekking towards the coast in search of the old church that supposedly has a catacomb underneath. The DM might ask, "Do you still plan to keep heading to the church to look for the catacomb?" If the group answers yes, that is what the DM is working on until the next session.

 

[pemerton]

Bring it to an End more or less sounds like Give the Bad Guys a goal and how they they can succeed or fail to reach that goal.

Not really. And it's not as if the writing is coy: "How do you expect the adventure will end? Think about possible endings as well as rewards for the characters."

It's hardly James Joyce.

That just seems very literalistic and almost like searching for problems, to me.

I do tend to read instructional texts literally. I mean, there are some exceptions in the RPG world - some instructional texts that are also written with flair and allusion - but I don't think WotC is writing those!

And I'm not "searching for problems". I saw a link to this preview, I had a read of it, and I was struck by the contradiction.

A classic dungeon, pre-stocked with rooms with traps and monsters is a completely pre-determined adventure.

This isn't true, if the map has multiple paths. (Which you seem to recognise.)

In the even more classic mega-dungeon, the players are also expected to scout out and choose their goal - so, in effect, it is the players who choose which scenes are framed (from a "menu" provided by the GM's dungeon building).

As long as you do not determine everything in advance, or at least give yourself leave to change the predetermined stuff in response to character actions then you have determined stuff in advance with out pre-determining the story.

You can predict the end in so far as if you were writing a story and how a rational author or your grandma might get to the end. Once your players are added to the mix they are going to metaphorically and sometimes literally set anything you plan on fire.

What it is saying is

1. Plan
2. Realize your plan will inevitably fall apart

Doesn't mean planning isn't helpful!

Well, if this is what they're hinting at (i) I think they could be clearer, and (ii) I think it's bad advice. I mean, why would you prepare a sequence of events if you're not intending to follow that sequence of events?

There are other ways of preparing and planning content for a RPG session than planning a sequence of events with a beginning and an end that you don't intend to use.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Most of the time a DM will probably use the ending they had in mind. Especially if they are playing with newer players, or players less inclined to ignore the narratives the DM puts forth.

If the DM sets the adventure premise as "The farmer arrives in the tavern and asks the PCs to find out where his horses disappeared to"... most of the time the players will do exactly what was asked of them (especially if there is reward involved.) So the game helps those DMs with their prep by having them determine prior to the game start what are the probable expected actions the players will take to solve this adventure, and what could happen at the end of the adventure should the players take the most likely and logical paths to get there.

I really think this idea that players don't follow breadcrumbs to finish adventures and instead do anything and everything in their power to ignore things the DM puts in front of them is a bit overblown. Or that true DM instruction is to teach them how to improvise everything out of whole cloth because players will never actually follow through on the adventure hooks a DM gives.