D&D (2024) D&D Pre-orders; this is sad

[Chaosmancer]

Wow. Read through the thread, started skimming the last 10 pages. And I think there are a lot of factors people are just not even conceptualizing that they need to consider in all of this.

I have some experience with Video Games, so let me start with that. How did modern Video Game content turn digital? Well, to start with... it was always digital. See, back when I purchased by Xbox One I got very annoyed with Microsoft. I liked having physical discs, but I started buying games and then being forced to download the game from the disc to the Xbox. This was the start of the "slippery slope" people are currently warning of. Once I had to download from my disc, what difference was it to download from the internet. And then they could do anything!!

But... there are two sides to this. See, I purchased games from Microsoft... to play on Microsoft's console. They could do this, and I had no choice but to be dragged along, because they controlled the game and the access to the game from the start. IF they didn't want me playing a game, they could "region lock" it so that it would refuse to play on the machine they designed.

But WoTC... cannot possibly do this. Even if WoTC burned all the physical books in the world and forced you to buy PDFs... they can't control how you play your game. They don't control the end result, they don't control the machinery the game is run on, because it can be run on paper and pencil. There is no step two here, there is no "they offered digital products, and then they could stop me from playing the game" because once you have the rules... you have everything you need.

Now, I did see some people saying that, at some point in the future, WoTC might only release digital products, and then if they delete those products, you lose access to them... but do you? They would not only need to release digital products, those products would have to lack the ability to download them. they would also have to lack the ability to copy paste them, they would also have to lack the ability to screenshot them, they would also have to lack the ability to record your screen and make a video of them. Because if you can do ANY of that, then you can make a file, put it on a hard drive, and eventually have a copy of the rules you control. Even if it take more work in opening a page of DnD Beyond and typing a word document in a second window that exactly copies the PHB.

THAT is the step they will need to take to "control" your access and ability to play the game. Go fully digital, prevent any ability of copying the digital information, and then they can force you to subscribe and pay them a monthly membership. And... well they literally cannot do this with 5e or 5.24. Not possible. And even if they go fully digital, then they can't prevent you from making personal copies without some really harsh measures. And once they take those measures? Then that edition of DnD never gets off the ground. But we are just as likely to see DnD die because they went full Digital Hellscape as we are to see it die because DnD stops being profitable and no one makes a new edition.

The way that Movies and Video Games are enjoyed (ie relying on other technology that can limit access to them) is so different from how DnD is enjoyed, that I cannot see this terrible future people are sure is going to happen because they want players to use their Digital Tabletop. I'm playing with a group via text message on Dischord right now, using rules and such posted to my Google Drive. Sure, maybe Google will die and my data will be lost (it is backed up on my computer) or Discord will die and I won't be able to use it to message people. Those are just as, if not more, likely than WoTC going fully digital then deleting your pdfs because they could only exist on their servers. It just isn't something worth being concerned over.

 

[ECMO3]

The folks with the resources to take an idea, produce it with higher quality materials, distribute it more widely and undercut competitors' costs would be the ones driven out of the market?

No, the megacorporation competitors wil be. Indivdual creators are not really "competitors" with megacorporations and individuals would be able to leverage the megacorporation's investments for free.

Think of this way - will you make more money selling your own game that you designed and that you bear the burden of marketing, or would you make more money selling D&D PHBs that are EXACTLY like WOTC's PHB with the exact same wording, the exact same art, the exact same text?

Ask yourself - who are your gamer freinds going to buy from, you or WOTC?

 

[Scribe]

Ask yourself - who are your gamer freinds going to buy from, you or WOTC?

The vast vast vast majority, not on the internet invested in this stuff?

WotC.

 

[ECMO3]

I must be misunderstanding your argument, because it sounds to me like you're saying corporations are better at making physical products than individuals, but their ability to own intellectual property is somehow an even bigger barrier of entry for newcomers to the market. So your solution is to make all intellectual property free for everyone to use.

They are more efficient at making physical products do to economies of scale, you could call that better or one aspect of better, but regardless of how you define "better" it does make it difficult for individuals to compete.

It appears you are getting into this late, my position is there should be no such thing as intellectual property. No one should "own" that. You own the paper you write it on, the computer it is saved on but you shouldn't own the words, code ideas etc and when you sell that book, sell that computer or transmit those ideas to someone else, that buyer/person should be able to do what they want with it to include copying and reselling for a profit.

Which, of course, makes no sense. Because if intellectual property is free for anyone to use, no one can make a living producing intellectual property. The only way to make money in this hypothetical economy is to produce physical products.

No. Software is not a physical product, words are not a physical product. But yes, no one should be able to control the content they create and keep other people from using it. This is the very thing that enables megacorporations.

We don't have to theorize here. There are many countries where what we would call piracy is legal or where piracy laws are not enforced even if they exist, and in those countries you have small mom and pop shops selling copied goods and surviving or even thriving locally. They sell copied software or sell Dooney and Burke or Versace knock off purses or whatever. Those little companies do make money in those more free countries and the megacorporations have much less influence and much less penetration into those markets than they do into markets with stronger intellectual property laws.

The reason the market is dominated by megacorporations in the USA and by and large the West is because we have and rigorously enforce laws to protect the intellectual property of megacorporations.

 

[ECMO3]

The vast vast vast majority, not on the internet invested in this stuff?

WotC.

I think the vast majority of gamers are on the internet, but if they are then this thread is largely irrelevant because what it predicts will not come to pass.

 

[ECMO3]

you say this as if it is a good thing, it really isn't

I think it is a good thing. Your opinion is different, that is what it is.

and Disney would sell a metric ton of my stuff while no one even knows I am trying to sell anything, Disney's or otherwise

There are countries with weak IP laws/enforcement and we don't see what you are saying will happen in those countries. We generally see the opposite of what you predict will happen.

 

[Scribe]

I don't think the vast majority of gamers are not on the internet, but if they are then this thread is largely irrelevant because what it predicts will not come to pass.

The vast majority of gamers are certainly not on this forum, and them being not on this forum, and likely heavy on the 'must consume' side of consumerism, means that what is predicted is more likely, not less.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

With Patreon you get something for your money every month, and you get to keep it. At least the ones I subscribe to.

Damn. I meant kickstarter.

 

[ECMO3]

The vast majority of gamers are certainly not on this forum, and them being not on this forum, and likely heavy on the 'must consume' side of consumerism, means that what is predicted is more likely, not less.

If the "vast vast vast majority" of gamers are not on the internet, they are not going to buy DLC or early access or be cajoled into paying for the "evils" alluded in the OP. Further if the vast majority of gamers (and money) are not on the internet then the majority of profit will not come from these things and a megacorporation exercising such a strategy will not effectively monetize the content.

Either most gamers use the internet and could be victimized by these predatory practices or they don't use the internet and therefore can't be victimized. You can't have it both ways.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yeah there’s not a single thing extra in those digital bundles that would make me want to buy up.

I’ll end up buying the big bundle simply because it’s $179 for all three books in both formats.

You used to be able to buy one product. You buy the book, you have the book, you play the game. You want more book? There's more books.

That is literally still how it works, with absolutely no sign of that going away.

But if you pay more, you'll get three exclusive spells for your wizard.

This will never happen. We have evidence that the fandom will be split between those who laugh at them and walk away and those who scream at them until they reverse course.