D&D (2024) D&D species article

[Maxperson]

Yes all of this is true.

+2 doesn't mean much. It takes 20 rolls to see the 2 times it matters.

Except you generally can't see it. The random nature of rolling means that you might get 4 extra hits in one batch of 4-5 combats, and no extra hits in the next 20 combats.

 

[Maxperson]

That is not completely true in an RPG that is abstract like D&D. IRL there are different kinds of strength and a simple stat doesn't really convey that well. What you can do with that strength is important and not all things equally strong (same stat) can do the same things with that strength.

We know what strength is in 5e.

"Strength measures bodily power, athletic training, and the extent to which you can exert raw physical force."

A powerful build is bodily power.

 

[dave2008]

We know what strength is in 5e.

"Strength measures bodily power, athletic training, and the extent to which you can exert raw physical force."

A powerful build is bodily power.

What does it mean for a dinosaur? Has it done athletic training? How does it apply to any 4-legged animal that can apply that strength differently than a biped? How does it apply to how we a acculturated to use that strength (human vs chimp), ie. how we "exert raw physical force"? There are host of similar questions about is strength that, IMO, leave room for more creative solutions for those who wish to engage in them.*

I disagree that strength in 5e is as simple as the sentence in the rulebooks.

*To be clear, I am not that person, but I think it is OK for those that wish too.

 

[Maxperson]

That isn't accurate. If you need to roll 13 to hit, there's 40% chance. Giving +2 attack roll means the chance becomes 50%, which is a 25% increase in landed attacks. The difference is felt and it becomes increasingly more important the harder it is to hit an enemy. If you need to roll a 19 to hit, then +2 attack has increased your chances from 10% to 20% - your chance has DOUBLED, you are hitting twice as often.

No. You have a 10% increased chance to hit against ALL armor classes. That's it. You get an average of two extra hits every 4-5 combats.

You're pulling the same news shenanigans there where they tell you that your chances of a heart attack go up 100%!!!!!!!! while failing to tell you that you went from .001% to .002%. Your "DOUBLED" sounds impressive, but isn't. 10% is 10% is 10%. You will average two extra hits over several combats.

2 damage is not insignificant either. People like doing as much damage as possible.

The bolded is all that is happening. 2 extra damage against something with 150 hit points isn't significant at all. Then you run over and hit the second creature with 150 hit points for 2 extra damage.

Yeah but so what? In this context it doesn't matter why something is important to a person, just that it is. People like to feel they've maximized their chances, that their character is the best at something. To feel they are the sneakiest sneak possible. The highest damage dealer possible. Casting the most amount of spells. Similar to athletes winning by .01 - doesn't matter about the margin, they did it.

Feelings =/= facts. Feeling like having an 18 over 14 is a significant increase doesn't make it so. I could feel like having $100 makes me rich in Southern California.

That's not a good way to go about it. Things should be designed around the stats themselves, so that modifications to stats become impactful. Like for example a +4 strength spell or -4 weaken spell.

It's okay to have both. It's only when a method of measuring strength doesn't match that an issue arises.

 

[Maxperson]

What does it mean for a dinosaur?

"Strength measures bodily power, athletic training, and the extent to which you can exert raw physical force."

That's what it means to a dinosaur.

Has it done athletic training? How does it apply to any 4-legged animal that can apply that strength differently than a biped? How does it apply to how we a acculturated to use that strength (human vs chimp), ie. how we "exert raw physical force"? There are host of similar questions about is strength that, IMO, leave room for more creative solutions for those who wish to engage in them.*

The game doesn't get that detailed. If the race is stronger, then it gets a strength bonus. Who cares why the horse, cow or chimpanzee are stronger than a human. They are, so they get a strength stat bonus that humans don't get.

If you are declaring a race like Goliaths to be stronger than other races, it has to be modeled in the stat as well.

 

[CreamCloud0]

The traits work well as a type of strength representative, but create a disconnect if you don't have a stat bonus. Also, your specific example of the halfling and goliath is irrelevant. These are racial bonuses, not individual ones. If the race as a whole is stronger, it has to be represented in all ways strength is represented in the game or you have created a contradiction which causes a disconnect.

Having the trait only works if you have no numerical stats. Once you add in numerical stats to represent strength, a stronger race needs to be stronger in that way as well.

but powerful build is a species bonus, it's just a multiplier not a flat numerical one, i admit there might be an issue with the fact the trait doesn't affect all circumstances in which strength is used but i consider that a separate issue to be fixed, but with powerful build any given goliath of any given STR score will be stronger than any other medium non-powerful build species of equal STR be that from 8 to 20 STR.

the fact that 'the strongest of the weak species' might be capable of outdoing 'the weakest of the strong species' holds water perfectly well, but the strongest goliath is still always going to far outdo the strongest halfling.

edit: this is also why i've started advocating for solutions like natural advantage or reliable talent on certain species performing certain checks, it means a goliath will consistently have an above-average rate of success on STR checks, or impossible to totally bottom out a check barring a nat 1 in which case you've probably got other problems than their narrative of being strong wobbling.

 

[Minigiant]

Dude. So does having strength bonuses. Specific examples are irrelevant, since they can happen even if your goliath has +2 to strength. Your individual can still have as low as a 5.

We are discussing racial bonuses, not bob the goliath bonuses. If the race is stronger, it needs to be represented in all ways strength is represented in the game, or you have created a contradiction where the race is both stronger and not stronger simultaneously, which is nonsense.

Simple
Reliable
Broad

Choose 2

Just using a linear ability mod is simple and reliable but is not broad because it requires extremely large ranges for ability scores in practical use. From 40 Str to 2 strength on starting PCs.

Using non-linear ability mind is reliable and broad but is no way simple.

 

[Maxperson]

but powerful build is a species bonus, it's just a multiplier not a flat numerical one, i admit there might be an issue with the fact the trait doesn't affect all circumstances in which strength is used but i consider that a separate issue to be fixed, but with powerful build any given goliath of any given STR score will be stronger than any other medium non-powerful build species of equal STR be that from 8 to 20 STR.

You fix it by giving it a strength bonus!!

the fact that 'the strongest of the weak species' might be capable of outdoing 'the weakest of the strong species' holds water perfectly well, but the strongest goliath is still always going to far outdo the strongest halfling.

Not really. Because he will outdo the strongest halfling and also not outdo the strongest halfling.

I solved the bolded part in my game by simply allowing scores to go to a max of 20+racial modifiers. So a Goliath will get to 22, a number a halfling will never reach.

 

[Maxperson]

Just using a linear ability mod is simple and reliable but is not broad because it requires extremely large ranges for ability scores in practical use. From 40 Str to 2 strength on starting PCs.

Using non-linear ability mind is reliable and broad but is no way simple.

How is the entire race of goliaths averaging two strength points higher than the entire race of halflings not broad?

 

[Minigiant]

How is the entire race of goliaths averaging two strength points higher than the entire race of halflings not broad?

Because is not +2 for goliaths.

The 5e Goliath has double carrying capacity than a human. Not +2.

Remove Powerful Build and you have to give the common goliath 20 STR. +10 STR.

THAT is the problem.